Does Anyone Have A Dog Reactive Doodle?

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Those in the training group know that Murph is very dog reactive.  It's something that we've been working on for over a year.  Today we were talking to our trainer about what may have caused this initially and he mentioned that he's now working with quite a few Doodles and none of them have the same type of reactiveness that we see in Murphy.  He said they are usually excitable and "react" when they see another dog because they just want to get to that dog to play.  There is nothing dominant of aggressive in this....they are just pulling or lunging out of pure excitement. With training he said this is very easy to correct.  Murphy's reaction is completely different....he is fearful of the other dog and so he has been reacting negatively and even with aggression.  He has no interest in getting to the other dog to "play"....there is no wagging tail. Over the past few weeks he's been able to walk by other dogs without a reaction but it is so apparent that he is very afraid.  He tries to get as close to me as he possible can....which I can't allow because that won't help his confidence at all in the long run.  He is great in Daycare which is a whole different context for him.  Most importantly I am not there, and there are lots of dogs so he can't fixate on any one.  We've been trying to determine what happened to Murph to cause this, and maybe there was nothing....it could just be "hard wired".  We'll probably never know.  I'm just wondering if anyone else has a Doodle with this problem.  I'm putting the discussion here versus in the training group just to try to get a broader audience.  After our discussion today with the trainer I started to think that I've never heard of another Doodle here on DK with the same problem as Murphy. 

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Jen, that's pretty interesting that Jack only reacts to the larger dogs.  With Murph size doesn't matter...they're all the same to him, and he's afraid of all of them.  I can just picture you "bench pressing" Jack....LOL.

[Kim Ledoux]

Our 14 week old Maddie seems to be very leary of dogs.  We didn't get her until she was 11 weeks.  If she meets another larger dogs she yelps and barks.  Now if she meets a smaller dog that is very submissive she wants to romp on them and play like it's her littermates.  We are bringing her to a positive day training camp. She goes 3 times per week and there are lots of dogs there, all different sizes and temperments.  The trainer said off the bat she was a mild mannered and timid little gal but super smart.  The first day she was in her own pen getting to know the atmosphere.  Yesterday they put her in with a very mild mannered golden, she was on the smaller side and Maddie had zero interest in interacting with her.  Today she was in with a boxer and she is starting to relax.  They plan to get her very comfortable with dogs that are similarly mannered as she and it will be a slow process I think.

One comment the training made was that he has worked with a number of goldendoodles and his faaling is that they are much more interested in their humans that socializing with other dogs.  What do you all think about that comment?

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I'm not sure about that comment.  It seems to me that most Doodles love their "humans" but also love playing with other dogs.  Clearly dogs with aggression issues like Murphy and Jack seem to be quite rare.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The kind of reactiveness that Jane's Murphy and my Jack have is way beyond growling and barking. We are talking about very large dogs (in JD's case, 80 lbs) going absolutely ballistic, to the point that they go airborne. 80 lbs of snarling, leaping, lunging, teeth-baring, uncontrollable fury. Recently, my Jack charged the fence in my yard with such force, he snapped a small shrub off at ground level. It is extremely difficult to control them in this state, they are beyond hearing or seeing anything except the other dog.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Yup....good description.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

Karen and Jane, you are right about distinguishing between Murph's and Jack's reactiveness and a dog who reacts to another dog/person sometimes.  Huge difference.  Our Springer has never met a dog or person he didn't like, except that he went into a depression when we got Ned that took about a year to 'get over' and then we got Clancy and they had some 'set to's for a couple of months. Still, he is a very gentle soul and I trust that I can take him anywhere and he would never bite, growl, lunge.  When our lab mix alpha dog passed away, Ned became our pack leader. Now if we are walking more than one dog, Ned might bark at another dog or person - in protection mode.  Clancy will bark at people on the other side of a fence and had some inexplicable lunges at people like workmen. Neither Ned nor Clancy appear to know what to do when they put on their big boy pants, but I am always cautious if I think there might be any conflict.   This kind of stuff is not a reactive dog it is a dog reacting, but Karen and Jane must always check for situations that are scary to Jack and Murphy because when they do loose it, it  is major.  I am always in awe of how hard they work with their guys to make them as comfortable as they can be in as many situations as possible, and that their doods do so well.  I really think there are adult hormonal changes that occur that set at least the milder stuff like Ned and Clancy's outbursts, even though they have been neutered.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I haven't worked anywhere near as hard as Jane has. I am in awe of her!

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Oh Karen....you have too worked with JD.  Remember that CGC????

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Nancy, your comment on the hormonal changes is interesting.  I know my Vet felt that Murphy's behavior would improve after neutering....she though some of his problems were to those "surging testosterone levels".  While it didn't appear to get better, maybe it actually did.....if he was not neutered he might be even worse.  I hadn't thought of it that way.

[Barbara B., Sasha & Oliver]

Oliver is very ractive to other dogs but in a good sense, he just wants to say Hi and can we play, his tail is up and wagging like crazy.  When on walks with Oliver he also is reactive to other people, animals, etc.  We are working on this and he is getting better and is starting to understand that while on walks or in a store that he is not able to play and greet everyone he sees - LOL.  When he is in the dog park if he sees a dog and person come in he has to come over a greet everyone, I call him the mayor :)   Ollie is a happy go-lucky kind of guy and loves everyone and every thing.   Pay attention to your body language and how you react when another dog is approaching, maybe try to focus his attention on you while another dog is passing with a treat or a tug on the leash, I have been doing this with Ollie and it has been working pretty well.  If you show fear or anxiety he will sense that.  I would tense up and grab tighter when someone was approaching while walking with Oliver, I stopped that and walked with more confidence and had him focus on me.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Thanks, Barbara.  Ollie does sound like a happy guy!  You're right about my body language....I always need to be very conscious of that.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Thanks everyone for your comments.  It sounds like possibly Murphy and Jack are the only two Doodles (of those commenting) that have these serious fear based dog reactions.  Clearly there are others, but it sounds like the episodes are not as "dangerous" as what Karen and I are seeing with our guys.  I feel great that for almost three weeks now we have been able to control Murphy's reactions....but the concern is that he is still very fearful whenever he sees another dog.  So we have modified the behavior (at least we think we have), but the cause has not been addressed at all.  That concerns me.  I was trying to get a sense as to whether this might be a "breed specific" issue....clearly it isn't which really shouldn't surprise me.  We have found a Behaviorist who is associated with the Specialty Clinic that treated Guinness, and I am considering taking Murphy there.  The Behaviorist has her DVM from Tufts and her specialty is Behavioral medicine and research.  She handles cases of aggression and makes a determination if it is environmental, breed related, or multifunctional.  The "breed related" cause is why I asked this question here on DK.  She conducts lab tests, takes a detailed history and observes the dog in different settings before providing a diagnosis and treatment plan.  I suspect this could lead to Murph being on regular meds, and I'm not sure exactly how I feel about that.  It just has become very apparent to me that while Murphy seems better able to control HOW he reacts to other dogs (because of all the training we've done) he still feels all the same fear that leads to his responses.  If that is the case, then maybe we are only treating his symptoms and not getting to the root cause.  I know this will be extremely expensive, so right now I'm still "on the fence".  I'm wondering if anyone has consulted this type of Behaviorist and what the outcome was.