Prong Collar Success for other than walking?

[Stephanie]

Hi everyone,

 

Perry (almost 14 weeks - female Goldendoodle)  is doing wonderfully on her crate training, and even leash walking , she's not a puller, and walks pretty calmly!

However, she has began to start testing us to the extremes with following commands.  We have had to begin walking her for potty on leash only,  and as of this moning, after 2 episodes on biting my son's hand pretty badly - I put her on leash ALL MORNING  - and pretty much reverted to a non stop - "earn it mode"    She will not potty FIRST if she's let out with out a leash - she goes straight to eating mulch and playing - and forgets to get her busniess  done. We are going back to all outside play is earned.

Also, the CHASE ME game has begun if I catch her eating or playing when she should be pottying. I will NOT play the chase game and do find a way to distract her back in,  after MANY attempts at a "come" command....

She has also gotten more rowdy in the evenings and mornings and not settling down.  We have increased excersise and walks to help combat this.  But it's as if I can feel her "slipping" if you know what I mean -  like, I have taken her past good behavior for granted and now she's really pushing the limits.  We want a reminder to her that we remain in charge.

I want to regain this control, and reinforce things like, lay on your spot, etc.

I have heard the prong collars are effective training tools, and most training classes ask that you have one on them - but  I was uncertian if they are mainly only effective for walking, or also for everyday household reinforcement.

[Stephanie]

thanks all for the prong collar advice,  

 

It would never be used as a permanent collar.  I was thinking only when we are at home with her, and just needed to be a little extra firm with her, and I would certainly not use it if she had gotten to the running full speed stage either...    I can just see the stubborness / smartness in her!   Right now for a few days,  I am tethering, and having her lay where I ask her to every moment.  She's  never had free roam of the house anyhow - and was put in her play pen when we couldn't have a direct eye on her. Just needed  some "I'm the MAMA"  reinforcement - and deterent for charging my son - it's the ONLY time she barks , LoL!

[Lynda Kamrath]

I have prong collars but use them only while walking when they need an extra reminder of appropriate behavior.  If I know the walk will be a challenge (cows or sheep in the area) or birds or rabbits appearing on the path, I put on the prong collar when we get out of the car.  As soon as we get back to the car the prong collar comes off.  I never have them on in the house or when the dogs are unsupervised.  It is too easy for the loop to get caught on something and the dog could choke.  It is not a punishment for the dogs, just a reminder that some behaviors are off limits.  Just a quick tug and the dog responds immediately.

[Stephanie]

Some of you have mentioned her possibly being overtired - let me ask this question,  what time IS bed time for your doodle?

Our scheducle goes as this normally:

wake up 5:30  - potty

5:30 - 6:30ish eat / potty/ play / chew bones

7:40 back to crate

11:40 - 12:30 lunch, potty break, play

3:00 pm play, potty

5:00 supper

5pm - 9 :30 pm  Play , potty

9:30 - 10ish , bed time.

there are many times in there , where's she's just chillin, laying on couch, her bed, chewing bone etc...  and not necesarily 'full on exhausting play" 

I am trying to get a good 25 - 45 minutes  outside time of walking  / leash pracice & playing fetch a day....

 

so I guess this is what I'm asking,  should she be going down for the night earlier??? 

[Adina P]

It's funny because I never thought of my dogs having a 'bed time' the way I think of my kids having a bedtime.  My dogs' go to bed when we do.  When we go to bed late, they do.  When we go to bed early, they do.  Since forever.

[Stephanie]

LoL!  Yes,   my repsonse did seem more exact, and  she does stay up w/ us if we are up for sure...   but we are pretty predictable during the wek!

[Laurie, Fudge, and Vern]

I guess I am a lot older than Adina and I want my dogs to go to bed earlier rather than later, so my husband and I can chill :) Now mind you, I don't tuck them in bed at night, but around 8 pm, I usually head back to the bedroom and get on my computer and they go to bed. That is our routine and we worked hard to get our dogs on the same routine. Whatever works for you, should be fine. I do give them two long walks per day. When they were puppies I brought them into bed with me, while I was on the computer and did not interact much with them and they always calmed down and fell asleep. Right before lights out...maybe 11 pm....we took them out for their last potty break (unless they got up in the middle of the night) and crated them. I think you just have to find the schedule that agrees with your lifestyle. Good luck.

[Adina P]

The best tool is a good training METHOD.  It's not the physical tool but how it is used.  She's still really young and that is NOT an excuse for bad behavior but few to NO dogs are ever 'done' training at her age.  They all can learn commands before they are this age, but they are just fun tricks to dogs early on.  It's only through continued obedience training (via some method that also has off leash control as a goal) that you'll get off leash obedience in distracting circumstances.  I totally know the frustrating feeling that your dog is blowing you off...same feeling as when your toddler starts exerting their independence in silly ways that make you want to scream.  Or throwing temper tantrums.  But dogs can only do what they've been trained to do.  There's training the 'come' command.  Then there's training it under difficult distractions.  Then there's training reliability off leash.  Those each have to do be done in a step-by-step fashion.  Unless you've worked through a training program from start to finish you can't expect the finished results of an adult or near-adult dog that obeys on and off leash.  My point is...there's more work to be done.  You can use a prong, but even before that no command should be given unless you are capable of enforcing it.   Going potty on command is also something you train...that's not on the same level as other commands because there's no way to MAKE their bladders or GI tracts empty.  Whereas you can make them sit, stay, come, etc...and those are more under a dog's voluntary control.

SO the short answer is yes a prong can be fine, but I'm not sure I'd get a prong or any tool without some training.I find this to be the most useful and effective video training program around: http://www.doodlekisses.com/forum2/topics/david-dikemans-command -- it does require some substantial daily time on your part and it would be better if you waited till your dog was a wee bit more mature (6 months is recommended) but if you have time and serious commitment and are willing to follow a program without embellishing it or removing/rearranging steps, I highly recommend it!

[Lori, Rooney & Zuzu]

I think the tethering you are doing and making her "earn" her rewards are great things to do at this stage.  As the mom of an 18+ week old puppy I do understand the panicky feeling that somehow if you don't correct all bad behavior right away it will never get better.  But, with a smart dog like Perry, with consistency, positive reinforcement for good behavior, and the first steps of obedience training you will find that she will move through these developmental stages quickly.  I can remember thinking one day, "Uh oh. Looks like we've hit a new stage!" And I think that was right around 14 weeks. But now, just a little over a month later, Rooney is like a different dog.  They grow so fast and I think as long as you give them limits, praise/rewards for good things, exercise, and TIME they mature out of a lot of those puppy behaviors seemingly on their own.

One of my favorite, most straightforward puppy training books is The Puppy Primer by Patricia McConnell. It doesn't bog you down with tons of theories or history and just presents a week by week plan of training.  In and amongst the training suggestions are some good reminders that puppies are young and can't be expected to behave perfectly (and won't be able to for a LONG time).  She says that one of the biggest mistakes owners make is expecting too much too soon and therefore getting frustrated with their pup.  Dogs can't speak our language and yet it is so tempting to think that they should somehow just "know" what we are saying.  She repeatedly reminds you that we wouldn't expect a Kindergartner to do College level Calculus and yet that is just about what we are asking of a puppy when we expect them to perform perfectly after only a few weeks of training.  Her perspective really helped me to relax and and to just stay calm and consistent with the training.

I do agree the biting of kids is a hard one to deal with.  It was frustrating to watch my 7 year old daughter so upset over the fact that she could barely play with her new puppy because all he would do is nip and mouth her.  But it is SOOOO much better now.  Now if he starts to get mouthy (which happens far less often now) it only takes a clap of the hands or an "Ah! Ah! Ah!" and he stops all on his own. My daughter can now play in the backyard with him for long periods of time and I don't have to watch them like a hawk (although I am always nearby still).  The things that I think made a difference for Rooney were #1: Time and Maturity #2 As many healthy, safe dog play interactions as we could find for him.  The more time he spends wrestling and biting with other dogs the less he needed to exhibit that behavior with us. #3: Training.

Good luck and hang in there!!!  There is a light at the end of the tunnel and you are getting closer every day!!

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

I do want to add one more thing. You mentioned your puppy likes to eat mulch.  Oh my.  Many types or mulch are very poisonous..

Please join the Danger Group here on DK. 

[F, Calla & Luca]

Cocoa mulch is poisonous for sure.

[Jennifer,Chloe & Myla]

We bought mulch last year and got it home and realized just the regular mulch was toxic because of how it was processed. We took it back and all we could find was playground chips which actually said NON-toxic on the bag.

Now the chips are gone and we just put bigger rocks in! It was their game to run into the chips grab and run and listen to us yelling drop it! Insane! Now I believe our whole back yard is puppy proof, just have to watch which annuals I buy this year.

[Jennifer,Chloe & Myla]

We use the collars on walks. Not for anything else. I wouldn't use it on a puppy at all. Maybe a no slip martingale collar?

I would just tether the leash and the regular collar to you when she slips.