Food or Giardia?

[Cathy Lalli]

I am new to this entire Doodle Kisses site.  I am hoping as I read I can find answers....Certainly I've learned a lot in the past 30 minutes!

My Doodle, Axxel, is 15 weeks old.  When I brought him home he was fine, but 2 days later he started having diarrhea and I was up 4-5 times/night with him.  He was kenneled and would whine in his crate.  After a week and a half, I called the vet and brought a fecal sample in.  They found some bacteria in it, though had no idea where it came from.  They put him on Metronidazole for a week, and after ONE pill, he slept through the night.  We did the required week...NOT one accident or nightly venture outside.  I slept!  

Finished does on Wednesday.  By Friday he had diarrhea again.  It was very mucous filled.  My son equated it to an egg.  On Monday I brought in another sample and though the testing came back clear of any bacteria or giardia, the vet thought perhaps he had it anyway as it doesn't always show up, so we TWO more weeks of this.  Again, after the FIRST pill, the diarrhea stopped and I slept.  Life was good.

Needless to say, we finished his meds on Wednesday and guess what I did last night?  Yep!  12, 2:30, 3:30 and 4:30.  I have no words.

Is it something we are missing or since we are feeding him still the crappy Iams.... maybe he has allergies to corn or whatever that is in it.  Do I try changing food tomorrow cold turkey and go with it?  Not like it will GIVE him diarrhea.  

[Tait & Finn]

I went thru the same thing. My boy is now 5 months and we had our first solid poop today!! I took him off all chicken as I thought he may have an issue with it. And I've started giving him a probiotic (Gentle Digest capsules) and have switched his food again to salmon & sweet potato (am currently switching over mixing with the old stuff, duck & potato). But it has finally worked. Oh, and any treats are one ingredient (freeze dried lamb or bison & dehydrated sweet potato chews). Good luck. It takes time and patience.

[Janice Jones]

Karen, I think this one is for you!!!!!
However with my experience with Wiggins I think there should be some Pancur administered instead of another dose of Metro. I was very nervous about prolonged use of Metro******* because of side effects. Once I went to a limited ingredient food things changed in two days. Hope you get other really good advice and things turn around really soon. Hugs to Axxel

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

There are two main problems here, besides the Iams food, which is not to blame for the diarrhea. 

The first problem is that if Axxel did/does have giardia, metronidazole is not the first choice of treatment; you need Panacur. 

Giardia has a 10-14 day incubation period and often doesn't show up in fecal tests. It can also be very, very difficult to get rid of, and metronidazole by itself usually won;t do the job. 

The second problem is the metronidazole itself. For reasons not well understood, while a dog is taking it, the stool becomes firmer. But the metronidazole is destroying all of the good bacteria in the GI tract along with the bad, and that good flora is necessary for normal stool formation. It's common that as soon as the metro is discontinued, the diarrhea starts again. 

This is how dozens of puppies end up with GI issues; they come home with parasites, the vet gives metro, it doesn't get rid of the parasites, the vet gives another course of metro, the GI bacteria is knocked completely out of balance, when the drugs are stopped the bad bacteria proliferates, and voila! A dog with lifelong digestive issues.

Metronidazole also has some fairly severe side effects when used in high doese or for long periods. The way the vets hand it out like candy, you would think it was harmless, but that's not true.

(Panacur, on the other hand, has very few side effects and is more effective.)

So, you must always give probiotics when a dog is taking any kind of antibiotics, to try to maintain a good bacterial balance and normal digestion. 

I would not change foods right now. First, you need to get either Proviable DC or iFlora for Pets. You will probably have to order it on-line. Do not buy Fortiflora from the vet. In the meantime, see if you can get a bottle of Gentle Digest (made by Ark Naturals) capsules at a local pet supply store and start those. Give him a tablespoon or two of plain, unflavored fat-free yogurt 2-3 times a day. 

I would feed him a mixture of 50% plain boiled white meat chicken, diced very small, and 50% baked mashed sweet potatoes. 

Ask your vet for 5 days worth of Panacur. Some vets do not know that Panacur is now the treatment of choice for giardia. If he argues with you, show him this article from the Univ. of Wisconsin veterinary school: http://www.vetmed.wisc.edu/pbs/zoonoses/gik9fel/giardia.html

Treatment of Giardia infections in dogs and cats:

• Metronidazole (e.g., Flagyl) can be used in both dogs and cats (not in pregnant animals).
• Albendazole (e.g., Valbazen) was recently found to be quite effective in dogs, and may be more efficacious than metronidazole in stopping the shedding of cysts. However, both metronidazole and albendazole have been associated with significant adverse reactions in dogs and cats:
  • Albendazole: leukopenia +/- anemia and thrombocytopenia; anorexia, lethargy; CNS signs; vomiting and diarrhea; salivation; elevated hepatic and pancreatic enzyme levels; abortion and teratogenicity
  • Metronidazole: vomiting; CNS signs
• Fenbendazole (e.g., Panacur® or Drontal-Plus®) now appears to be the drug of choice. Used in dogs and cats at 50 mg/kg for 3 (-5) days, fenbendazole has been shown to be completely effective in eliminating experimental Giardia infections, and with only mild vomiting/diarrhea as potential side effects.

Giardia is very common in doodle puppies. It's also very contagious. When a puppy has giardia, you must disinfect every area that the feces has contacted or they will keep reinfecting themselves. Use baby wipes on the puppy's bottom after he goes, every time. Wash his bedding, blankets, etc. Use bleach on any areas indoors or out where he has defecated, plain water and soap will not kill the giardia cysts. And wear rubber gloves when you pick up the poop, people can get giardia, too. Make sure your puppy doesn't eat or drink anything when he is outside, even if that means you have to take him out every time on a leash. Drinking standing water outdoors is one of the main ways they get giardia in the first place. 

After 5 days on the Panacur and chicken/potaot diet, with the Gentle Digest and yogurt, the diarrhea should be gone. By then you will hopefully have gotten the other probiotics. Continue to give those with the Gentle Digest as you transition from the homemade diet to a new food. You may also want to give him a couple of tablespoons of plain pure canned pumpkin a couple of times a day.

Also, it is extremely unlikely that a 15 week old puppy would have developed allergies to anything. It's not the food. But is this the food that the breeder was feeding him?

[Janice Jones]

Brilliant and well thought out answer Karen. This is GREAT advice!! I just wish I had been in contact with you at the beginning of our journey. Perhaps things would have been settled sooner. :-)

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Thank you, Janice. 

Also, Cathy, be sure that you don't give any probiotics or yogurt within two hours of any antibiotics or other meds. 

[nira rajavasireddy]

Great advice Karen, I've learned so much from you, in reading your posts and responses in past discussions as well. Thank you..

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Thank you, Nira. 

[Cathy Lalli]

Wow!  Thanks so much for the valuable information!  I appreciate you taking the time to give me this information!  Axxel thanks you also!   I will make sure to keep this information handy!

[Sally Lehman]

http://www.amazon.com/Proviable-DC-Cats-Dogs-Capsules/dp/B001O3UE9E...

I ORDERED PROVIABLE DC FOR MY DOG ON AMAZON PER KAREN'S ADVICE.  APPARENTLY, IT IS MUCH CHEAPER THAN GETTING IT FROM YOUR VET OR SOMEWHERE ELSE.  HERE IS THE LINK OF WHERE I ORDERED IT.  IT WAS 30 BUCKS FOR 80 CAPSULES AND YOU GIVE ONE PER DAY SPRINKLED ON THEIR FOOD FOR ONE MEAL.  SO, IT WOULD LAST A BIT LESS THAN 3 MONTHS.  I HOPE YOUR AXXEL FEELS BETTER SOON!!  IT IS NOT FUN HAVING A SICK PUPPY!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Just about everything is cheaper elsewhere than at the vet, lol. I am happy that some vets do sell the Proviable rather than that crappy Purina Fortiflora. 

[Cathy Lalli]

Thanks Sally!  I will do that!  In all of our dogs over the years, we've never had to deal with any sickness/issues until they were over 10!  This is very new to me!