Primal or not?

[Nga Phan]

Eva is 5 months old and she has been on Primal (chicken and beef) from when we got her from the breeder. The breeder also fed her Primal.

Recently, she's been to the vet twice for what was diagnosed as Colitis. We are not sure yet if parasites/bacteria are the causes. She's currently on antibiotics and a high fiber diet as prescribed by the vet.

He also said that he would not suggest a raw diet as it has all kinds of bacteria and no proven benefits. I don't believe it but would like to hear others' experiences. Have you had trouble with Primal with your doodle? Have you had to switch to non-raw diet before and did it help? Please share.

Thank you!!!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

There is no nutritional curriculum in veterinary school, so your vet is not the best person to give you advice on diet and nutrition, strange as that may seem. The Rx foods they prescribe and sell are about the worst garbage you can feed your dog. In the future, it would be best to refuse it. 

I would also not give antibiotics without a good reason, especially metronidazole, (also called Flagyl). I would wait until you get the results of the fecal test before giving antibiotics, and if your puppy is positive for giardia, you need Panacur, NOT just metronidazole. And any time your dog is on antibiotics, you need to give yogurt and/or probiotics. 

Commercial raw diets do not contain any more bacteria than any other type of commercial dog food if used and handled properly. I do agree with the vet that there are no proven benefits to a raw diet as opposed to a cooked diet, but I can promise you that the Primal did not cause the GI issues if it was kept properly packaged, stored and refrigerated. And kudos to your breeder for feeding such a high quality premium diet. 

Due to the high cost, there are not many people here feeding Primal, but there are a few. Hopefully they will chime in. 

[Nga Phan]

Wow, thanks, Karen. Are there any good vets these days. I went to two different vets and they both prescribe Metronidazole without first knowing if there are parasites. I should know if she has Giardia by tomorrow afternoon.

In the meantime, I'm going to get her yogurt and stop feeding her the Rx food. How much yogurt should I give her?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

A couple of tablespoons 2-3 times a day, and not within 2 hours either way of the antibiotics. 

You may also want to get some Gentle Digest capsules by Ark Naturals, it helps a lot with digestive issues. 

If the giardia test is positive, insist on Panacur. Insist on it. Metronidazole is not as effective , doesn't always get rid of the giardia, and has a lot more side effects. A lot of vets are just not up to date on the best ways to treat giardia. Vets hand out metronidazole like candy, which leads you to believe that it is harmless. Wrong. It can have neurological side effects when used long term or in higher doses, and it strips all of the good bacteria from the gut along with the bad, so when you discontinue it, the bacterial balance in the digestive system is totally out of whack and the dog ends up with chronic diarrhea.  So it's very important that you give probiotics and/or yogurt any time a dog is treated with antibiotics, especially metronidazole. 

If it should turn out that Eva does have colitis, talk to the vet about Tylan (Tylosin). It's very effective on bacteria in the colon, and has few if any side effects, even when used long term. Much safer than metronidazole. It can just be expensive because it has to be compounded.

[Nga Phan]

Thanks so much, Karen. I'll make sure to follow your advice.

[Susan and Pippi]

Pippi, who's a year old, is on a raw diet. I started her on Primal when I started her on raw food. She was a four or five months old. She's never ever had any ill effects. I switched her from Primal only because I had to drive a long distance to get it. Now I give her a variety of raw meats from an online source, Hare Today, which I think is great--from all I can tell, they conscientiously source and handle their meats, and their service is excellent. I supplement with salmon oil, a little yogurt, an occasional egg, and sometimes veggies--she loves green beans and asparagus.

I honestly don't believe that there's any "best" way to feed your dog, but I expect there are a lot of good ways and even more bad ways. Pippi turned up her nose at kibble, but the minute I switched her to raw food, she started eating with enthusiasm. I handle it with extreme care, just as I handle the food my family eats. Her weight is good, her energy level is wonderful, her skin and coat are beautiful. As far as I can tell, she's the picture of doodle health

I definitely agree with everything Karen said about your vet's probable lack of knowledge about diet and nutrition. And her advice about meds is spot on, as usual.

[Nga Phan]

Thanks, Susan. Do you cook the green beans and asparagus or do you give them raw to Pipi?

I also like Eva on the raw food so I'm very reluctant to switch unless I am somehow proven that her GI issues are related to the raw food... Though the jury is still out at this point (I'll keep monitoring her).

The other thing that she does, which could give her GI issues is she loves to chew on grass. I of course try to stop her but can't do that 100%.

[Susan and Pippi]

Pippi likes asparagus and green beans right from the garden, but she'll also eat them cooked. She also likes sweet potatoes aand canned pumpkin. Pumpkin is also really good for digestive upsets.

[Laurie, Wally & Charlotte]

Hi.  I feed both of my dogs Primal, and I must say, that it has greatly IMPROVED their overall health.  One of my dogs suffered from chronic ear infections for about six years, and has not had a single problem with his ears since I switched him to Primal a year-and-a-half ago.  My puppy had all kinds of issues with her GI tract, and after starting her on Primal this past January, she's been fine, too. I can't imagine that Eva's issues are related to her eating Primal food.  I do hope that you can get to the bottom of her troubles.  Be careful with overdoing the antibiotics.  If you do need to give them to her, please be sure to add plain nonfat yogurt and additional probiotics.  

[Laurie, Wally & Charlotte]

I didn't mention this in my response last night, but I add a tablespoon each of pumpkin and yogurt to Wally and Charlotte's food.  Wally is 7 years old, and Charlotte is turning one this week -- time flies!  In addition to the pumpkin and yogurt, I add about 1/3 teaspoon of Animals Essentials brand of probiotic powder.  I give them a variety of raw veggies, too -- though Charlotte can't tolerate greenbeans, and I avoid all starches such as corn, peas and potatoes.  I feed them twice a day; Wally gets one 8-oz. Primal patty for each meal and Charlotte eats a half of a patty (4 oz.).  I rotate the meat sources, feeding chicken, turkey/sardine, lamb, beef, and duck.  When they finish a bag, I move to another, keeping a supply in our extra freezer.  Also, all of their treats are entirely free of grains and starches.  For my dogs, this combination has been a winning one.

[Nga Phan]

Thanks, Laurie. I cut up the green beans this morning. She didn't seem to like them that much and left about 1/3 left on her plate... But she loves the yogurt and I have a feeling she'll like the pumpkin as well.

Which grain-free treats do you use? I've been given her Zuke's, which is corn free only I think.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Most dogs prefer canned sodium free green beans. The raw beans are almost pure cellulose and have little if any nutritional value. There are many foods, especially plant foods, that are far more nutritious when cooked than they are raw, for both dogs and humans. 

There are lots of good grain free treats available. Healthy Partner, Fresh is Best, Pure Bites, and True Chews are just a few, and Orijen has just come out with pure protein freeze dried treats, no grain or any other carbohydrates in them, just animal proteins. Freeze dried liver treats are widely available as well. And Zuke's Z-Filets are grain free: http://www.zukes.com/dogs/z-filets-444.html

[Susan and Pippi]

Karen, I'd love to know the source for your information about the nutritional value of raw vs. cooked green beans and other plant foods. I, unfortunately, have only the Google to consult. :)