Genetics and Facial Furnishings-HELP!

[Annette Wade]

Ok... I'm really hoping someone on here can help me out or can direct me to someone who can. I have been looking for answers for a long time and every time I run a Google inquiry I get this forum. Well, today I decided to join and ask. I own American Cockapoos... not exactly the same kind of doodle this forum is about, but a doodle nonetheless. I adore my little fluffballs. This is what I want to know: Do all poodles possess facial furnishings?

 

I have read multiple times that facial furnishings are a dominant trait. Trying not to be too complex but in short I am wondering how the heck first generation doodle blends could possibly lack facial furnishings and the wiry coat of the poodle if this trait (which is apparently linked) is genuinely a dominant trait??

If poodles all have facial furnishings and "breed true" then wouldn't all F1 doodle blends have facial furnishings and wire coats and be carriers for the smooth face as retrievers (and Cockers) never have this gene?

 

If anyone knows please tell me!! I'm so confused! The only thing I can think of is that poodles do not all have facial furnishings and are therefore possibly carriers of the recessive trait. It is nearly impossible to tell because the vast majority of poodles have their faces shaved, so pictures don't help me and I have been asking poodle breeders whenever I can (email or in person at shows, etc) but unfortunately poodle breeders all seem to think that hybrids are an abomination and they won't talk to me (and often look like they'd like to spit on me)

 

Ok, thanks guys,

Annette

Oh-and here are a few pictures of my cuties, just to be a pet-parent and share as I feel compelled to do ;-)

[Annette Wade]

Karen & Jackdoodle: yes, you explained exactly what I'm talking about, but I was avoiding the science behind it since I know it can get very confusing.

I wasn't necessarily talking about coat curl-as you said, that is a trait that works (like it does with people) as a co-dominant trait. This is shown especially in my Cockapoos, since Cockers have wavy coats already (which is exhibited when a dog is autosomal heterozygous for a curly coat) That is one of the reasons it is nearly impossible to find a flat-coated cockapoo. Even those with fairly flat coats have a good bit of wave and feathering like the cocker, and the best breeders of F1 use cockers with a tighter curl.

Anywho everything I read shows that long coats are recessive to short coats and (as you stated) the wire coat/facial furnishings gene (on the W locus) is dominant over a clear face (w) so I don't know what gives. That would mean that *all* F1 doodles should be Ww and phenotypically have furnishings. This would then make it true that F2 dogs would be more likely to lack furnishings as all F1s would be Ww. That pairing would give (statistically anyway) about 25% clear-faced dogs... however I see many clear-faced F1 Cockapoos and I even own one... She is really beautiful and I am happy with her, but the whole thing is making me scratch my head. I understand a fair bit on genetics and I have read several scholarly articles regarding doggie genes, but I'm still confused.

It is really a shame that so little about dog genetics is really understood. Hopefully, now that the science is really getting better, we will be able to learn more about dogs (seeing as people was the scientific priority for all this time)

[Annette Wade]

*Note* I do not know much about clear-faced F1 Golden or Labradoodles but I have firsthand witnessed clear-faced F1 Cockapoos.

[Annette Wade]

Karen-if poodles were common carriers of a recessive w then you'd expect to occasionally see a clear-faced purebred poodle. If that is not the standard, then certainly breeders wouldn't try for it and would avoid breeding clear-faced dogs, but we'd certainly see them occasionally. Someone, somewhere would accidentally breed two carrier dogs (two heterozygous dogs) and have a clear-faced puppy... poodles are popular-there has to be a mill somewhere that would knowingly breed a clear-faced dog if they exist, despite being undesirable...

That is why I was wondering if they exist. I've emailed a few poodle breeders that intentionally breed merle and parti poodles. Perhaps they will be more willing to talk to me, despite my doodle love, as merles are considered an abomination in the poodle world and most people believe that a merle poodle is really a hybrid, though bred back to poodles often enough to hide the original breed-in. (Merle is a dominant trait so unless there was a surprise mutation somewhere along the lines you'd expect to have seen merle in the poodle breed all along)

Maybe these rouge poodle breeders can help me out! I also emailed a woman who keeps her poodles either long or in the lamb cut. She likes the natural look and not show-clips, so if anyone would know, she'd know!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Well, without wanting to hurt anyone's feelings, those are the kinds of poodle breeders who sell to doodle breeders, so they are usually not hostile towards the mixes. But their dogs are also usually far from the breed standard, too, in terms of structure and coat, and they are far, far from the most knowledgable poodle people, too. 

I know a breeder of exceptionally high quality Standard Poodles that I'll ask. 

I'm thinking that the recessive mutation might be a throw back in certain lines, but I really have no idea. Optigen does have testing for it, but poodles are not one of the breeds for which testing is recommended, so that makes me think that it's not recommended because it's rarely necessary. 

[Sarah and Willow]

My F1 goldendoodle had no sign of any facial furnishings (in my novice opinion, lol) for the first 7 months of her puppyhood. Here is a picture of her at 6 months, then at a year old. I know this doesn't add much to the discussion topic, but her facial hair is very odd. She looks like Big Bird :) It's very sparse, and sticks everywhere. She is more heavy on the muttonchops than the beard part.

[Annette Wade]

Your puppy is so cute! What a change in such a long time! I think the slow physical appearance of some of these doodle characteristics make is so hard for breeders to spot the occasional flat-coated pup in the litter.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

Ahhhh, but she is such a cute mutton chop girl!

[Sarah and Willow]

I think so too! But that picture doesn't show her crazy unibrow hair sticking out all over the place. I really need to figure out something for that face, grooming wise. I guess I was just so amazed that she actually grew some facial hair that it is really hard to cut any of it off.

[Tiffany Kennedy]

Thanks for the photos and info! Here's to hoping that my doodle will get more, well, doodley! She is adorable!

[Stephanie Brown]

Rigby is an F2b his father is a double doodle and his mother is a golden doodle. Not sure if it helps. He has furnishings on the top of his head, also his legs are fuzzy. He's getting poodle curl behind his ears too. A brother from the same litter is totally doodlish, with facial furnishings.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Thanks, Stephanie, what we're looking for are F1s without facial furnishings. 

[Sarah and Willow]

That mohawk is the coolest!