Barking!!!

[Sherri Mazursky]

 Barking, loud barking, all of the time.

When she is hungry, excited, someone walks by our house, wants attention.

I mean for everything!!!! While I'm sitting here typing. If the tv is on, when I'm on the phone, And good luck have a conversation when a friend comes over. Music on, you name it.

Please tell me she will stop this most annoying habit.

[Robin & Josie]

Jay, I find your response to be incredibly elitist and, frankly, offensive. Just because a product is sold at PetSmart or PetCo, doesn't make it inferior. We are not talking about food produced in China here.

I have been using this collar (which wasn't cheap), at the recommendation of my certified trainer (who we would invest in if she were publicly traded - she's that good). It is safe. It is effective. And I have total peace of mind using it. I wouldn't recommend it otherwise.

You are not the only person I have come across on this site that has taken this elitist attitude.

I love coming here for information, but, at times like these, I have to think twice about contributing, as I don't appreciate seeing a response like yours which upsets me. 

If you disagree with my suggestion, then say so. There is no need to post an arrogant and offensive comment. If you really feel the need to degrade my suggested product, then perhaps you would do better to send a private message to Sherri so she can benefit from your wisdom without hurting someone else's feelings.

[Jay, Lola and Colonel Esau]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you.  I can relate to your reaction, too.  I remember, it was exactly how I felt when I went to the high end pet food store and the person started telling me why I should feed Acana or whatever and not what I can buy at PetCo.  But after a while I started to realize there was more to it than that. Yes, there is plenty of arrogance and elitism in the dog world - but that is not always the case.  

With e-collars, for example, it's not so much about the brand as much as the device itself.  Timing and precision are crucial in any kind of operant conditioning - but especially with positive punishment (i.e., a "correction"), which comparatively produces results with fewer repetitions and which are less susceptible to extinction.  This is good in that when it works it is a fast and effective way of modifying behavior.  It's bad in that if there is a timing error and the dog associates the correction with the wrong thing it will be a lot harder to fix.  And this risk is even more with a bark collar because you are trusting it to figure out the proper timing for you - and it's just a machine that is working with limited information (it knows if the dog is barking but does not factor in things like eye contact, body language, etc., that I human being could consider in giving a correction).

Given all that, and especially since the price difference isn't that much, I personally think it makes sense to go with a device I really feel comfortable with.  I like Einstein because I've used many of them over the years and because the people are outstanding and I trust them more than an unknown.  The device is manufactured in the US (Indiana I think), using high quality parts and standards.  All they do is make e-collars so they have all the incentive in the world to get it right.  There was only one time I had an issue, where I felt like the knob was not turning as smoothly as it should and was making it harder to stimulate consistently.  The President of the company contacted me personally to find out what was going on and sent me a replacement right away, no questions asked and free of charge of course.  I still have his email in case anything else should come up.  Again I say this for example only because this is the one I have experience with.  I have used Dogtra collars too and the devices are fine but I have not had any occasion to deal with the people who make them as I have with Einstein.  Also I don't believe the pet store brands have the ability to distinguish between nuisance barking and "legitimate" barking, as we are starting to see with the higher-end bark collars (but I'm not certain about that - this could have changed).

Again that's just how I personally think about it and of course someone else might come to a different conclusion.  That's one of the great things about DK, we all share our information and experiences so that people can make up their own minds about what they think is best for them and their beloved dogs.  At least you don't have to worry about them having a separate agenda of some kind.

[Robin & Josie]

Thanks for your response Jay.

The collar I was describing is not a "bark" collar, or even an e-collar. It is a citronella collar. It gives a short, corrective spray of citronella when a human hits the button on the remote that comes with it. Of course you have to factor in human error, but there is no mechanical error. It only sprays when you hit the remote button.

My experience is that this collar has been magical. As soon as Josie started whining, I hit the button, she got sprayed - end of whining. It also stopped her from jumping on people. I haven't had it on her in weeks, but I wouldn't hesitate to strap it on if she regressed.

I can't speak to the device you're describing, but this has been my experience.

[Jay, Lola and Colonel Esau]

I don't think the terms have universally accepted meanings but for this discussion I would broadly categorize devices that automatically deliver a reinforcer when the dog barks as "bark collars" and devices that deliver the reinforcer when a human pushes a button as "e-collars".   Depending on the specific collar, the reinforcer delivered can be electronic stimulation, vibration, tone or citronella or some combination of these.  I wrongly assumed that the device you were talking about was what I'm calling a bark collar, when it is actually what I'm calling an e-collar.  I agree that the situations you are describing are the ideal applications for such a device - and the type of precision I'm concerned about might not be as significant as it is with more complex applications.

All that said, I would be interested to know what advantage your trainer sees in using citronella as a reinforcer vs. electronic stimulation, vibrations or tone.  Electronic stimulation is useful because the intensity and duration can be adjusted so precisely.  Vibration and tone are useful because they are not inherently unpleasant so it's easier to condition them to become positive reinforcers.  Citronella seems like it would be both imprecise and unpleasant, and I can't think of what the advantage would be.

[Jay, Lola and Colonel Esau]

Oops, I should also retract or at least clarify one other thing based on what you just said.  With remote collars where the user pushes a button, there is not as much chance of the dog becoming collar wise.  It can definitely happen, but it's not virtually inevitable as it is with the automatic bark collar.  With a manually controlled remote collar you can significantly reduce the chances of the dog becoming collar wise by going slowly and following the proper steps as far as conditioning the dog to the collar, etc.

[Robin & Josie]

We haven't discussed shock collars with our trainer. Personally, I'd have to be convinced that there was no pain involved. My initial reaction. Is to avoid them, although I have read your thorough explanation.

She initially introduced us to a can of air (that you use to clean a computer keyboard.) Spraying air at their feet can inhibit jumping, and, obviously, there is no pain involved.

She likes the citronella because it is completely controlled by a human (the remote keeps the reinforcer unidentified), and effective.

Josie hates the smell (I'm not a fan either!) and it didn't take very many sprays before we saw DRAMATIC and lasting results.

We started with the usual positive reinforcement techniques. This was for resistant behavior only.
.

[Jay, Lola and Colonel Esau]

With very, very few exceptions (perhaps something like rattlesnake avoidance training), it would be abusive to use an electronic collar - or any training device for that matter - in a manner that causes pain.  They say the electronic collar is the most frequently misused training tool, too - I guess because people just put it on and start pushing buttons without having a proper understanding of operating conditioning theory, how the device works, etc.  Maybe she thinks that if the person messes up with the citronella the amount of damage they can do will be less.

On a somewhat related note, there are a lot of trainers - and one big company I can think of specifically - that systematically use electronic collars in a way that is way too close to abusive for me to be comfortable.  But I say that not because they use it at a level that inflicts pain (which I do not believe they do) - but because they use it to deliver corrections for things that the dog doesn't thoroughly understand yet, which causes way too much psychological stress I believe.  They do this in order to achieve "amazing" results in short periods of time without the owners having to follow up or do any work on their own.   Of course people who think it is acceptable to use aversives in this manner don't need e-collars to do it.  If they didn't have e-collars they would use other adversives - as we all did before we had the understanding we now do about the value of creating a proper foundation with positive reinforcement first.  But they do use e-collars and even make their customers buy their own branded e-collars to as an additional revenue source.  Some dogs trained in such a stressful manner will develop issues like fear, aggression, etc. - and I imagine some people will attribute that to the training device itself rather than the trainer or the training method.

[Robin & Josie]

Just to be clear (and I think I said this in my first post), the citronella collar is only suggested for dogs who have already been through the typical training methods (in our case, positive reinforcement for good behaviors and withdrawing attention for undesirable ones.)

This collar was not even suggested until Josie was about 9 months old and we did all the usual training methods for stopping, what seems to be, a natural instinct, to jump on people.

In our case, our puppy is small (13 lbs.), so when she "jumps" on someone, the usual reaction is to pet her and tell her how cute she is. Obviously, this is the opposite of turning and ignoring her. Given that I work in senior housing, my residents actually felt bad turning their backs on her.

In order for her to continue being here with me and to work toward her therapy dog certification, she had to stop the jumping on people - unless invited. 

The whining thing was a bonus. We simply couldn't tolerate it. We raised two girls and we just can't do whining any more. This was the perfect way to curb it. She usually did it in the car and I was able to press the button while I was driving. She didn't know what "hit" her and she stopped. It took a couple of sprays (our trainer says if they don't get it after three tries, it's not going to work). I have no idea what her next suggestion would have been.

I do know that our previous dog made us crazy with her incessant barking for years. If we had only known. I swore I wasn't going down that path again. This is why I suggested it for Sherri. Her dog is younger, but I haven't heard of any positive reinforcement training to curb barking, so why not try it? It can't hurt.

So when I said that we had AMAZING results with the citronella collar, it was after months of trying other techniques, to no avail. No one could really help us with the whining, other than to say, don't respond to it or that could be construed as reinforcing it. 

Lastly, our trainer works independently and is not part of a larger company. She is a member of the Association of Pet Dog Trainers. She keeps abreast of the newest theories. She doesn't believe that one can foster aggression by playing "Tug of War". In fact, she encourages it as a way to teach "drop it" and to bond with your dog. Dogs love to play and it uses up some of that excess puppy energy. She is also not a fan of Cesar Millan and the whole pack theory. She says that those theories are very outdated. She doesn't subscribe to the practice of going through the door before your dog, and she doesn't have a problem with feeding your dog before yourself or of letting your dog sleep on your bed.

For us, she is perfect. She is a vet tech. She is compassionate and regularly fosters dogs and trains assistance animals.

"The proof is in the pudding" as they say, and, at almost a year, Josie is a truly amazing puppy. She gets into mischief, for sure. Loves to chew on anything, especially my shoes. Will I use the citronella collar to curb that behavior? I wish I could, but of course I can't, because how is she supposed to know the difference between my shoes and her chew toys. Or my stuffed toys and hers. I have to watch her closely, and give her appropriate things to chew.

I work with her daily to reinforce her training and I assume I will be continuing to do this forever. She is affectionate, loves everybody and will make an excellent therapy dog - and, in fact, is already acting in that role with my residents, who adore her. 

I understand that there are a lot of different training methods and trainers out there. I'm just happy that we found our perfect match.

[Jay, Lola and Colonel Esau]

That all makes sense.  I agree completely that a situation where you are trying to stop a dog from doing something is the easiest, simplest and most logical application of positive punishment like you are doing with the citronella.  There is always a slight risk of developing superstitious behavior (meaning, the dog associates the correction with the wrong thing) but as long you know what the dog is focused on it should be fine.  In addition to positive punishment like you are doing, adversives can be used for negative reinforcement (such as tugging on a leash - negative in that the pressure gets removed when the dog complies, reinforcement in that compliance is therefore reinforced) - but with an application like that I'd be worried about the technical limitations of the citronella collar as a means of supplying the adversive.

I agree that tug of war is a great means of building drive and increasing the power of positive reinforcement.  I've never heard of it causing aggression.  It is commonly used to train attack dogs, so maybe that is where the idea comes from.  But its function really is to increase drive, the same as you are doing - not create aggression.  I really don't know much about that type of training and am unsure if aggression is desireable or not in that context.  I've heard a philosophy that the way to produce a reliable attack dog is to start with an aggressive dog and then teach it not to attack - but I don't know if there is any merit to that approach or not.

The one thing I might slightly disagree with is the characterization of Cesar Millan as a dog trainer.  Without expressing judgment about him generally (my actual opinion on the matter is more complicated that just agree or disagree) I do think we should at least acknowledge that he is not a dog trainer.  I've watched a bunch of the episodes and states this all the time.  Dog training is when you teach a dog to do or not do certain behaviors, generally on cue.  What Millan purports to deal with involves things like dogs' underlying emotional and psychological state.  With humans we don't usually have trouble distinguishing between what a school teacher does and what a psychologist does, and I've wondered a lot about why we have so much trouble with this distinction when it comes to dogs.  I've speculated that maybe dog some trainers intentionally characterize Millan as a dog trainer to try to capitalize on his success by then offering an alternative.  But I know a lot them that do it and they are good and honest people whom I really don't imagine being that devious.  So who knows.

[Robin & Josie]

Well perhaps Cesar Millan is more of a people trainer. I think that's what he says. Until he takes the dogs to his inpatient psych hospital. Then he's dealing with the dogs as patients and he's the psychologist....

[Jay, Lola and Colonel Esau]

Right!  That's the mantra.  And he's definitely not lacking those. :)