New Member! And we need some advice...

[Chelsea Sifers]

Hi everyone! We are new here but have been lurking around ever since we got our mini goldendoodle Maisy back in December. She is now 10 months old but has been having some tummy trouble for the past few months - loose stools and diarrhea. She did 2 rounds of antibiotics (metro) and has had a fecal float done twice and both came back negative but the problem always comes back. She was eating Blue Buffalo puppy and her vet suggested we try switching her food but didn't specify so I switched her to Orijen puppy. She did better for a week maybe and the problem came back. Her vet is now suggesting Science Diet puppy (she had never heard of Orijen and had to look it up which seemed odd but she said that grain free foods can be missing the fiber she needs and could be causing a problem or it could be too rich) but all I have read is bad things. I hate to go against her and seem like I know more than a licensed vet but I'm not comfortable with this food. I am going to try to keep her on the Orijen and go get her a probiotic but if that doesn't work I don't know what my next move is. She has been acting totally like herself the entire time, so I'm happy about that but we are exhausted from getting up with her at night anywhere from 0-3 times depending on the night. Help!

[F, Calla & Luca]

Welcome to DK. A probiotic, like Proviable, is a great idea. You can add fiber by mashing a bit of sweet potato to your pup's food. Too rich implies fat and Orijen does not have too much fat. Karen, our resident food expert will chime in. Aside from all her good advice she will also tell you vets don't know much about food

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

LOL, I just replied in your main forum discussion, but I'll post the info here too. F has touched on a couple of the points.

Unfortunately, it's very common in dogs who have been given metronidazole, especially when there have been repeated rounds, to dvelop chronic diarrhea after the meds are discontinued. The metronidazole destroys all of the bacteria in the GI tract, including the good bacteria which is necessary for proper stool formation. For this reason, any dog who is taking antibiotics and especially metronidazole must also be given probiotics for a period of time during and after the treatment. 

To make matters worse, metronidazole can have other side-effects, especially when used repeatedly or long term. It is also not the most effective treatment for giardia, although many vets still prescribe it. A more effective treatment is Panacur, which is also very safe in terms of side effects. If the diarrhea is so urgent that Maisy is waking you at night, she may have giardia, even though it didn't show up in the tests.  If that continues, I would ask your vet for a 3-5 day course of Panacur.

Regarding probiotics, do not let the vet sell you Fortiflora (an overpriced Purina product that contains some truly lousy ingredients). I recommend Proviable DC; some vets do sell it, but you will probably have to order it on-line. 

Probiotics must always be given at least two hours apart from any antibiotics. You will need to use the probiotics for about a month at least.

You are right to refuse the Science Diet food. It's garbage. And in this case, you DO know more than a licensed vet, because there is no required nutrition curriculum in vet school, and anything your vet knows about food comes directly from the Science Diet sales and marketing people. 

And yes, richness in food refers to fat content. What your vet means by "too rich" is either that the food has too many different protein sources, or that it's too high in protein, which is wrong. Higher protein grain free foods tend to produce firmer, smaller stools. 
A lack of fiber is not what's causing Maisy to wake you several times during the night, lol, but as F mentioned, you could try adding a tablespoon or two of mashed sweet potato to her meals. Bake in microwave, cool, peel, mash with fork, really fast and easy. 

Good luck and please keep us posted.

[Rae]

For both our Goldendoodles, Rozee- 8 yrs and Cassie-12 weeks, we feed Orijen - Senior and Puppy. Any sign of soft/loose stools we just add a fees spoons of canned plain pumpkin. It works great. We also give them Proviable-DC and all is well. Please stay away from SD....you have your baby on the BEST so stay with it!

[Vivian & Mojo]

I wouldn't listen to the vet about Science diet, mine tried to have me switch to it but lucky I read the feeding guidelines here on DK and thanks to Karen & jackdoodle I started feeding Orijen. Just reading the ingredients in Science diet made me wonder why my vet would sell and suggust it.  My puppy also had been on metronidazole and got so sick I had to stop the medication. A friend who had knowledge  about pet meds told me to ask my vet for told me Amoxicillin as its easier on dogs and less harmful than the metronidazole that had a list of side affects other then the diarrhea. I also gave him  probiotics (Proviable) and it took a while before the diarrhea stopped. I still give him the probiotics and feed grain free Orijen 6 fish and my Doodle has been doing wonderfully on it. I'm so thankful to this site and to Karen for the helpful advise.

[Chelsea Sifers]

Thank you so much for your help! It feels so weird to not be able to trust the vet with food AND medication recommendations - sad. I would love to find a vet who has the same values that I do but I don't know how feasible that is. I actually went out and got her a probiotic this morning from a natural pet store near us called Natural Pawz where I get her Orijen. It's HerbSmith Microflora Plus - http://www.herbsmithinc.com/home/canine/microflora/default.asp. Do you know if this is a decent probiotic? It seemed to be better than the other ones they were selling (higher probiotic count) and I just want to move quick to get my baby some relief.

Also, when I was at Natural Pawz, I ran the situation by them and they said its possible that she might do better on Acana since its a little more mild - do you think there is anything to that?

Thanks again!

[F, Calla & Luca]

What does mild mean : ) Acana has a slightly lower content and my doodles have been on it for several years now.

[Chelsea Sifers]

I think she meant a little lower protein content than Orijen. She also showed me some brand called Now by Petcurean that had lower protein content. I think I will stick with the Orijen for now and see how the probiotic works with that before trying to switch her food again but I'm keeping those in mind for the future. Especially for a couple months from now when I switch her to an adult formula.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The probiotic count in the Microflora product is excellent; I have my doubts about all the herbs and digestive enzymes (most of them can't be utilized, as they will be denatured by the stomach acid, lol) but as long as you have it, try it. 

A lower protein content is not going to help with loose stool or diarrhea. IF you change foods, it should be to an LID formula like one of the Acana Singles: http://www.acana.com/products/singles/

Sometimes, a simpler, single protein formula can help with GI issues. 

Petcurean is one of our recommended brands, but if you go with their food, buy an LID formula from the GO! Sensitivity & Shine line, (here's a link: http://www.petcurean.com/for-dogs/go/sensitivity-and-shine-grain-fr...) not the NOW line. 

And if vets have little formal education in nutrition, most store clerks have even less, lol. They may know their product lines, but I would not take their advice on health issues. :) 

[Chelsea Sifers]

Thanks! I will go ahead and give this probiotic a try and thanks for the additional info on the foods :)

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Please keep us posted. :) 

[Chelsea Sifers]

So far so good! But I'm not getting too excited just yet because she has had moments of being okay through this whole process. I will see how it goes the rest of the week and will update again!

[Chelsea Sifers]

Just an update - Maisy has been on the probiotic for 10 days now and we have had not ONE issue! I'm amazed and so happy that I think we have found something that works for our girl without having to switch her food! Thank you for all your help and advice!