"What Is Real Clicker Training?"

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

http://clickandtreat.com/wordpress/?p=884

The above article was recommended to me by a friend who is a breeder of Champion Poodles...Championship Titles in Obedience and Agility, not just Conformation, although they have those too. 

Since putting an AKC Obedience Title on multiple dogs speaks volumes to me about a person's knowledge and abilities, I tend to respect her opinions on the topic of dog training.

Clicker training, and "purely positive" training methods in general, have never made much sense to me. I started training my own dogs back in the late 70s, when aversion methods were all I ever saw anybody use, and some of what I saw (and I'm ashamed to admit, did) was pretty harsh. However, it worked. I had a dog who could be relied upon under any and every circumstance, distraction, and temptation to do the things I needed her to do, the kinds of things that would save a dog's life...which to me is one of the most important reasons for training. 

Then I got JD and met a "positive methods only" trainer. I couldn't understand how you could effectively train a dog using only rewards for good behavior and simply ignoring (not correcting) "bad" behavior, but I gave it a try. JD is generally a submissive, timid, tractable dog, so we did okay with these methods. (Especially since with JD there never really was any bad behavior, unless you count dropping a slobbery tennis ball in the lap of every guest who entered my home, lol.)

 But he isn't anywhere near as well trained as my first dog was, and I would not trust that in a real crisis, he would respond as well as necessary. 

I know of another dog with severe behavioral issues who was passed from home to home and mishandled every step of the way. His final owner believed only in positive training methods, and did in fact use clicker training with him, with disastrous results. He certainly learned a lot of tricks, but in the end, he was humanely euthanized for extreme aggression which had no physical basis or cause. It actually seemed to me that his behavior was worse after the clicker training than before it. While that was an extreme case,  it left me with an even more skeptical view of clicker training than ever.

After reading this article, I think I understand more about clicker training, and I also think I understand more about it than a lot of the people who use it, lol. 

This part of the article pretty much sums it up: 

"So, the real problem with clicker training is that there are two separate views of the process. One side sticks to the Skinner/Breland preference for positive reinforcement in all things and places a taboo on investigating, discussing or using aversive control. The other perspective assumes that neither reinforcement nor punishment can possibly be good or evil, without a reference to a specific task or goal. Only in the context of a specific application can any behavioral effect be judged as beneficial or damaging. For example, hundreds of thousands of dogs are destroyed each year because they greet humans by jumping on them. This behavior is taught to them by humans when they are infants – with positive reinforcement. To stop a dog with a long history of jumping on people a non-dangerous punishment procedure can quickly inhibit the behavior. In this example, positive reinforcement causes the deaths of many dogs while positive punishment could save them. It is the choice of the trainer to select the tool that is most likely fix the problem. For effective clicker trainers, the key is to find the right combination of behavioral effects that are likely to teach correct behavior and make it dependable in the real world. If you follow the punishment with clicks and treats for correct behavior an inhibition can be created that leaves a lasting absence of the unacceptable behavior with only beneficial side-effects – a loving, polite dog that will stay in the home."

Thoughts? 

[Adina P]

Another thing worth considering is what will give the average pet owner success in a decent time frame?  Most pet owners aren't into training enough to go to 5 or 6 classes in order to have a dog that walks nicely on leash, doesn't pull, won't jump on guests and comes when called.  But it seems that most training schools require many many classes to get that far.  Beginner's obedience does not result in reliability.  Advanced might.

My biggest complaint about training classes offered for the general public (based on my observation of what many dog owners complain about) is the lack of training for real world distractions.  NOBODY should leave even a beginner's training class without realizing that they can NOT expect a dog who has only practiced in the living room to obey reliably when at the park or down the street or anywhere else but the living room.  It's as though trainers rarely bring up reality.  I can't believe that is actually true, but considering the things owners in puppy madness and this group bring up  most...it seems the case.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Every training class I ever took with any of my dogs other than the one at Petsmart gave homework assignments that required practicing outside of the home. Of course, it was up to  the "students" to choose to blow off that homework, but since each person had to demonstrate that week's progress before the class, those of us with any pride did their homework, lol. 

And the most aversive types of training methods got the fastest and most lasting results. Not advocating them, just sayin'...

[Adina P]

Of course dog owners have to actually do what the trainer has taught them, but judging by so many questions I see on dog forums, it seems that they are not getting this lesson about the proper way to use distractions.

[Adina P]

"And the most aversive types of training methods got the fastest and most lasting results."

That says a lot.  Of course, I don't think that means we need to promote the most aversive (and you aren't saying that either).  But as far as results in a timely manner and helping people train their dogs so they are well behaved.  The trainers I follow put out really great basic obedience classes.  If students do their homework, at the end of a 10 week class a majority of them would be able to qualify for a CGC.  Contrast that to the general popular string of classes today: Puppy K, Beginner's, Intermediate, Advanced, CGC prep.  Not all training programs have that specific progression, but it's similar.  4-5 classes worth of obedience before a dog is even considered mannerly enough to be a good citizen! That's a lot of commitment. 

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

That's why I prefer training that takes you out into that "real world".  That's what proofing is all about.  I firmly believe that dogs learn and behave based on the context.  Murpy actually passed his CGC because in the context of the training facility he could pass that test. He was comfortable there and he knew all the dogs in his CGC training group.  On the "bike path" or in the park with strange dogs all bets were off.  There are trainers who only teach in a structured class...and they train to that context and have a high success rate.  In my mind that's not training at all.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

That's how Jack passed the CGC too. 

[Wynnie & Jim]

Wynnie had lots of classes...Beginning Obedience, then advanced classes in Loose Leash, Polite Greetings, Impulse Control, and Reliable Recall. Each class consisted of 4 sessions and included homework. I also believed, like Jane, that real world practice was essential to her training. So, we went to parks where there were bikers, joggers and other dogs going by. Practice...practice....I had the time and it was fun to watch her progress and she had fun. The CGC was just confirmation of her hard work.

Still, I do need to work a bit more on Reliability. Adina's comments have been helpful and Karen's response to my quandary have suggested that I am not alone in this training quest. This has been a great thread...thanks Karen.

[Susan & Randy's Kate]

I probably would not try clicker training because, like my reading glasses and seam rippers ,I would never be able to find it.

[Wynnie & Jim]

Yes, that was the problem that I eventually had...:-)