Labradoodle growling?

[Neptune]

I want to intervene early and ensure this behavior does not progress!  I have a 15 month old Labradoodle.  The puppy is actually my first dog as I am allergic to dogs and was purchased from a breeder after much research to ensure I would not be allergic.  He was to be a pet for my kids ages 13/11.  We immediately started puppy training with both kids in attendance.  This was followed by basic training,  where only my daughter and I were attending.  Following with good citizen class, and intro to clicker training at this point only I was attending the training. 6 months into dog ownership my kids stopped walking, feeding, and taking the dog out for potty.  They still play with him and love him but are not consistent.  They also play pretty rough with him...  and do tug of war. 

Here is the problem.. I work from home and spend tons of time with the my puppy plus I feed him, walk him, and just adore this puppy - Jett.  When Jett turned 13 months old he first growled at my son... and was mouthy with him...  My son was trying to pick up Jett from a dead sleep.. the puppy growled..  my son ignored.. and kept trying to pick him up..  Jett was mouthy and used his teeth on his hand.. did not break skin but was trying to stop him.  I immediately went to the dog and picked him up and handed him to my son....  Then a month later I was sitting with Jett in my lap and my daughter tried to pick him up off of my lap and he growled at her.  My daughter yelled at him and continued to pick him up... he was mouthy with her but she ignored him and picked him up.  At this point I realized I had a problem on my hands...  I started to re-read a few dog books I have and ask my old dog trainer for help.  She had a few points to  make.  1.  Let sleeping dogs lie.  2.  Dogs are not toys and he may just not like being picked up anymore (can this be a dogs choice?)  3.  Poodles often really bond to one person in the house.. in this case me.  So this is not surprising but can be fixed. 

Here are my questions... 

*  As a new dog owner.. how normal is it that  your dog would growl at a family member?  I am freaked out!!  Does growling turn to biting?  I have heard that if you teach your dog not to growl it is worse b/c he will then go from nothing to biting?

*  I am now insisting that the kids feed Jett and spend more time with him walking him on loose leash so he will learn the kids are alpha.   He will walk loose leash with them.. and wait at the door and walk behind them but I still don't think Jett thinks he is submissive to my kids?  I think he knows he must play this game but he is really alpha or at best they are litter mates?

*  I am being super strict with Jett at home and have tightened up the rules again.  He is not allowed on furniture unless invited, he is sleeping in crate again, he must wait before he eats, I removed all bones and they are only given to him by the kids and taken away by the kids. When we eat as a family he must sit in another room and WAIT.

*  I am showing the puppy that if he growls he is sent away and the kids stay with me.  He has only growled one other time so I have not really been able to practice this yet?  I was thinking of practicing.. having Jett on my lap and showing him that the kids can move him away from me.. with my watchful eye.  None of us think he would actually bite any of us but he does use his mouth on us? 

Where can I learn more about this behavior and prevention??   Clearly I love my dog..  but can't let him guard me away from my kids...

I am happy for feedback and success stories of how to get Jett being submissive to everyone in the house.

Neptune!!

 

[Judith and Addie]

First, please look up positive training and don't think about dog behavior as alpha, leader, submissive, etc. Think more along the lines of respect. I sometimes try to think of my 2 year old pup as a 2 year old child with very low verbal skills. Her way of communicating is through barks and growls. The research that was done years ago on wolves that began that theory of packs and dominance has been debunked, including by the person who did the study. (If any of the books you are reading are the Cesar Milan variety, I myself would throw those away.)

You are on the right track with asking your dog trainer for help. Is your puppy resource guarding you? I wasn't certain since you said he growled at your daughter when she kept picking him up. Your pup could have been reacting to the idea of being picked up when he was comfortable, which would be a bit different than resource guarding. A good book on resource guarding is "Mine" by Jean Donaldson. 

You are right that you don't want to suppress your dog's growl; the growl can be a warning and if he has no way to give the warning, he can go directly to biting. About mouthy, some dogs are just mouthy and it is part of their play pattern, although it is not a polite way to play. Is Jett being mouthy in play, or is he indicating a bite? Mine is mouthy still when she plays with other dogs. She used to be mouthy with me, but anytime her teeth touched me, I gave a little yelp like I was hurt, stopped the play, and ignored her for a short while. By the way, my girl also growls when she is excited, and also as part of an invitation to play, so there are many types of growls. Your description does sound, though, like a warning.

When you wrote "At this point I realized I had a problem on my hands" I thought you would mention your children. Not only do they need to interact with Jett by feeding and walking but they also need to learn what is appropriate behavior for them towards Jett. Your pup needs to respect everyone in the house, but he also should be respected. Some dogs do not like being picked up. I assume he is small but if he doesn't like being picked up, try thinking of him as a mastiff. As to picking him up when asleep,  I don't think anyone likes being awakened suddenly.

I would be very cautious and do not recommend trying to teach Jett that the kids can remove him from your lap, especially if he is resource guarding you. I would consult with a trainer on how to deal with that issue. He is also at an age where he can be going through another fear stage, and you may want to take that into account.

It sounds to me as though he is well trained: he waits for a release to eat; he only goes on furniture when invited; he stays in a different room when you eat (I assume here it is voluntary, not restrained). I am sure you will be able to work out the issues, but I would also recommend a consult with a behaviorist type trainer to give you a plan. Please, though, don't use any methods that cause discomfort or pain in the training.

[Neptune]

Judith,  thank you for your thoughtful response!  So yes I have been reading Cesar books...  but also engage in positive training at a reputable facility....  I am not sure either if he is resource guarding me or not?  I will watch closely and continue to engage with positive training.  He has not growled since..  so I may wait on the behaviorist coming to the home.  I plan to put him in advanced off leash training in Feb.  and when I say growl he didn't show teeth but I had never heard that from him before.  He does a funny growl in the morning when he is trying to get me to pet him... he does a play growl and then lays down on his back so I can rub his belly. 

thank you!!

[Cindy and Olive (Ollie)]

My son used to try to engage my dog when the dog was resting, and occasionally he would receive a "leave me alone" growl. At first it alarmed me, as I'd been trying to be leader (but not alpha) in the hierarchy like you mentioned. But when I read (and check Doggy Dan, the online dog trainer, he is great) and learned that the growl was a good warning and not to eliminate that, I also learned to SEPARATE the two immediately. So, dog growls = separation from child. Both are safe that way. I kept up the leadership and bonding activities with the kids involved, too. After a while, he pretty much outgrew it and/or my son and he learned from eachother. Best to you! Enjoy Jett! :)

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I'll give you my thoughts on each of the questions you raised...

-Growling at a family member can mean lots of different things...and the context of that growl is key to understanding how to respond.  One of my Doodles was allowed to sleep on our bed as a puppy until the day my husband got into bed and this guy growled and tried to bite him.  He was resource guarding me....and that meant he was never allowed on the bed again.  So I did not CORRECT him for the growl, but I did eliminate the situation where he would need to growl.  I think you have learned that Jett is not comfortable with the kids picking him up, especially when he's asleep.  I would say to stop allowing that,,,,he's sending you a message and it's important that you listen to what he's telling you.  Most dogs of this age aren't thrilled about being "picked up" especially when they're comfortable.  I never pick up my guys...even my 20 lb mini and I don't allow the grand -kids to do that either.

-I would bet that Jett has learned that you are the alpha...not the kids.  It's about more than who feeds him, although it's great that you are including them in the feeding ritual which is so important.  He knows that you are the leader...he knows that your energy is different from that of the kids.  Early on my Doodles learned that I am their leader (I really don't use the "alpha" term).  They also have had to learn that as their leader I am telling them how they must behave with my husband and son.

-I LOVE the rules you have put in place for Jett....I think that is perfect.  These do reinforce that he must look to you to tell him what he can and can't do.  Instead of trying to put the kids in leadership roles with him, just reinforcing that you are in charge and the kids are YOUR resources will help him to understand.  We went through something very similar with our son, and I had to "claim him" so my pushy Dood would understand that I was not going to tolerate any bullying of him.

-I think it's good to show Jett that if he growls he goes to his crate.  I would do this with no emotion at all.  I really don't think I'd practice having the kids move him away from you.  Remember he thinks of you as the leader....someone moving him away from his leader is very uncomfortable for him...that's why he's growling in the first place.  Understand his message and respect what he's saying.

I think you have given this a lot of thought and are putting in the work and I really respect you for that.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

You have gotten good advice for Neptune, but you need to address your children's interactions also. They should NEVER pick up the dog - he isn't a toy to be drug around.  They should NEVER roughhouse with him.  They SHOULD interact with him -  feed, train, play ball or fetch, sit and pet, but NOT Tug-of-war, wrestling, yelling, running, chasing. They need to be gentle but firm with him. At 11 and 13 they are definitely old enough to enjoy the benefits of having a dog, and can help with him. Involving them in training is a perfect way to do that. But truly the dog is owned by you and your husband and the decision-making and responsibility is yours.   Since dog-ownership is new to you, seeking a trainer's expertise, and advice from the forum is a good way to get input and benefit from others' experiences..

[Susan and Bentley]

I agree 100% with everything Judith said.  First, no one likes to be woken up from a dead sleep.  Think about it, if someone woke you from a dead sleep, you be disoriented and probably annoyed and grouchy.  He growled to communicate that.   And good for him that he did give that warning, and didn't try to bite.  Bentley has many different ways of communicating and I actually understand his different barks and growls.  He is 23 lbs and he does not like to be picked up.  Even as a puppy, he did not like it.  As our trainer explained, some dogs just don't like to be picked up, it can make them feel unsafe.  We only pick Bentley up when he "asks".  We respect the fact that he just doesn't like it.  It does sound more like he just doesn't want to be picked up whenever the kids feel like doing it.  I think your kids need to be "trained" and a good trainer will help with that.   As my trainer also said, you have to know your dog.  They all have different personalities, likes, dislikes, etc.  Getting a trainer involved is the best thing to do for all of you.

[Linda, Charlie Brown and Beau]

Judith gave you are great response.  After re-reading your discussion several times, I can't help but think if the children were taught not to disturb sleeping puppy by trying to pick him up and/or playing rough house with him, none of this would have even happened.  Positive training with the kids and the puppy will be your best friend.     

[Laura and Angus]

I agree with a lot that was already said here, but slightly disagree. I think that 1) working with a professional to help understand your pup's behaviors and identify how to best respond is really important - we only know a little bit about your dog and the background of the concerns, so it's hard to give really well-rounded advice. 2) leadership training is crazy helpful for dogs, especially headstrong dogs like my Angus. 3) you make the rules for your house and you teach your pup to follow them.

Something that was very very helpful in our house was doing activities to increase leadership like - having our dog sit and wait to be given the "ok" before being able to eat, blocking him from rushing past us through doorways/hallways/stairs, and making him sit and wait until he gets the "ok" to move through doorways after us. However, in my opinion, growling outside of play or that happy growling our dog does is unacceptable behavior in our house. I definitely think it's important to talk with your kids about how to treat the dog respectfully and if you don't want them picking your pup up while sleeping, you can teach them to call the dog and give treats/praise if they want the dog to join them and snuggle.

BUT our dog Angus is not allowed to growl or complain if we need to handle him for any reason. I think it's important that a dog allow you to handle them (not roughly obviously), but they need to tolerate these things. What if there's an emergency and you have to quickly grab your dog for some reason while they're resting or not expecting to be handled? Also, doodles require so much grooming that they need to allow you to move them around and touch their mouths, eyes, ears, and feet without complaint. So, for example, Angus had an issue with his paw a few months ago and while at the vet he developed a fear with his front paws (long story). So now, he gets upset when anyone touches his front paws - we are working with him to positively reinforce him for letting us touch his paws and move them around or brush or whatever. Though, the other day he got annoyed while we were brushing him and he growled at us .. he received a sharp "uh uh!" for that because he has to be ok with being handled whether he wants to or not. Angus is the kinda dog who doesn't want to have to do what he doesn't want to do - this is his personality. Our trainers worked with us for this paw issue and explained that if he tries to pull away from us holding his paw, we have to gently hold onto his paw until he stops pulling or fighting and then he gets praise and treats for waiting calmly. In your case, you may want to work with the kids for a replacement behavior (e.g. calling the dog to come to them with treats), but also with doing leadership activities with the dog (I mentioned a few examples above).

I am on the fence about "growling as a warning." You have to know your dog well enough to know their behavior and this is where it'd be good to have a trainer present to see what precedes the issue and how you all are responding to figure out how best way to improve the behavior - usually this is changing how you respond. I personally don't think a dog should be growling at his family because I think that suggests there are other issues going on that need some kind of intervention- they need to trust you all and likely the leadership training and working with a professional will help with that. But they also need to understand that you (the humans) are in charge and what you say goes. In our house, the pup doesn't get to complain to us when he doesn't want to do something and he doesn't get to put his mouth on us in any fashion. Those behaviors are discouraged at our house. We have a very mouthy dog during play and he's very hyper, so it's been a process. Obviously we're still working on that concept, but we've come a loooong way over the last year with our fuzzy baby. Good luck with everything! 

[Judith and Addie]

Laura, You have expressed some very good ideas. I think, though, on the issue of growling I believe there is more agreement than disagreement.

If a dog is growling as a warning, the act of growling as a warning is what I don't believe should be stopped. A dog that has no way to express a warning can often escalate immediately to a bite. But, importantly, the reason for the growl needs to be addressed. And as you mentioned, working with positive reinforcement and desensitizing is the way to handle it.

I do disagree with the way your trainer recommended treating the paw fear issue. Continuing to do a behavior to a dog until the dog gives you the response you want is not as effective as training the behavior that you do want. For example, say you are afraid of spiders and someone keeps putting a couple of spiders on you. You keep shaking them off until finally you are exhausted and hold still for a few seconds. Then the person gives you $1,000. So turning it into positive reinforcement with your dog, a positive way to get your dog to allow handling his paw is to desensitize him so he is not afraid of the handling, not repressing the fear response to the handling. You could have done that by starting by bringing your hand near his paw and treating, gradually working up to holding his paw briefly and treating, then working on holding the paw for longer periods of time while treating. Then your dog sees the handling as, Oh, yay - having my paw held means something good!

[Laura and Angus]

Very true. And actually you described the training we are working on with Angus better than I did. It is desensitization training. We don't just grab and hold on to his hands. We had to start with just touching his paw and rewarding that and then gradually increasing the time we touched his paw. Then we would turn on the clippers near him and treat for relaxed behavior and gradually move them closer until we could touch them etc etc ad nauseum.The trainer's point was not to reinforce the pulling away behavior - really a behavioral perspective. By letting go of his paw when he pulls, we are telling him that's an acceptable behavior, whereas waiting until he calmed down and letting go meant that if he is calm he gets what he wants. Angus is a very hyper dog and a lot of the training we've done with him centers around waiting until he is calm and rewarding that behavior. 

Anywho, with loads of work and additional practice creating a grooming setting with our trainer, we got to a point where we could handle him and brush, but after going to the groomer a few times (two different groomers, in fact) his behavior got worse. I'm now at a point where I'm doing the grooming for Angus because he needs to work with me more with the grooming movements, behaviors, and tools before we can ever consider having another groomer work with him. Buuuut over the weekend we had a breakthrough and Angus allowed me to clip his toenails (on all four paws) when he was calm and relaxed. Progress! I've also got different brushes because I think some of the issue is related to the feeling of the brush we have - some progress there with a new type of brush. But like you mentioned, it's a very gradual process that takes a long long time and hours of work. But I'm in complete agreement that rewarding the positive/desired behaviors is key to successful training!

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I have a dog who sounds very similar to Angus.  Murphy is a growler...he growls at sounds outside or when he hears the doorbell...in the car he growls when he sees people on the sidewalk.   I do not allow him to growl at anyone in this house...he has now learned that that's unacceptable.  He never did growl at me because he sees me as his leader, but he did growl at my son and husband and it took some training and counter conditioning to stop it.  Murph is "full of himself" and he loves to try to intimidate people to get what he wants.  We had to put a stop to that.

[Laura and Angus]

Oh my, Murphy and Angus sound like kindred spirits. Angus is a big talker - he growls when he's playing or when he sees cats or squirrels or when he is happily chewing a bone - but like you said we can tell his different moods and sometimes it is clear that he is trying to get his way. This is why I think it's so important to get to know your dog's temperament and personality. We know exactly where Angus' behaviors are coming from and even though he's a stinker we just love him so much.