Piranha Puppy - remaining patient & e-collar question

[Sarah Kuiper]

I've posted before about my frustration with the "play biting" and it has started to get better in the house. I've been using a time out, and at one point was using the "pet corrector" hissing spray. It still is a trying process but I'm trying to remain patient. I know I really need to find a place where he can socialize more and attend an obedience class (curse you rural area!!) , but in the mean time I'm very appreciative of DK. :)

I'm going to ask about the static e-shock collars, so please no judgement. :) I was speaking with a friend at work who has the BEST behaved dog. I asked her for tips and she didn't hesitate to tell me that she used a collar. She said that (done the right way) it almost seemed more humane because they learned so much faster and she never had to lay a hand on her dog that would make him fear people (grabbing his muzzle etc) . I was really intrigued... Especially since I have another arm full of nasty bruising where Roomba decided to play bite out on a walk where I couldn't easily give him a time out and walk away. Does anyone have any insight on these collars with biting? I'm also wondering if the training only works with the collar on or if there would be a point where he would no longer have to wear it?

As for the walks I think his walks will be back and forth in front of the house for a while so I can give him a time out if needed, but I really wish I didn't have to do this. "No bite" is very important to me because we want to add some two legged family members in the near future.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I'm deeply involved in doodle rescue and currently helping with trying to place a beautiful 2 year old miniature F1B goldendoodle who was rehomed because of growling and nipping the children, despite the use of an e-collar. In fact, the family actually was going to have her put to sleep before the vet persuaded them to contact DRC. The aggression towards the children actually escalated from growling to nipping after they started using the e-collar. This dog is now also very nervous and skittish. There's no doubt that she is beautifully behaved, in terms of leash walking and obeying commands, but a nervous wreck who takes a very long time to trust or relax, and very reactive when she is on leash. There is no question that she is much more fearful than she was before the e-collar training happened. It's certainly possible that the collar was misused, but I personally (and this is not a "judgment", it is my own personal opinion and belief) do not think that the use of electric shocks has any place in training a normal puppy.  And I do believe and have seen that it can cause harm to the dog's psyche. Biting and nipping are normal puppy behaviors, and there are non-punitive training methods (not involving grabbing muzzles) that effectively deal with that. 

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

First of all I don't think the fact that you don't have to "lay a hand on a dog" is a valid endorsement for using an e-collar on a puppy.  The fact that he learns faster (which I question) does not make the method more humane IMO.  Have you tried stopping the minute the play biting starts?  Slide your hand all the way down to the end of the leash so you have total control of him and just wait until he calms down.  Don't move a step until you see that he is calm and then treat, praise and move forward.  If he starts it again I would take him right back inside and crate him....so you would need to practice this in front of the house.  Continuing to walk while he is in this state of mind reinforces the behavior....they kind of hate stopping their walk and having to sit and wait and it doesn't take long for them to get the idea that this behavior doesn't get them what they want.

[Missy]

Roomba is a cutie!!  I hear your frustration and you are correct to change this behavior.  I am a big user and encourager of ecollars; however, they only work to reinforce commands.  I am thinking the dog would be confused as to why he was getting shocked on the nipping thing, which could lead to other major problems. 

I have heard of people having great success using Doggie Dan's training.  Have you looked at any of his videos for this problem?

We are rural too, so never had the luxury of obedience classes. 

I bought a book: http://www.amazon.com/Puppy-Primer-Patricia-B-McConnell/dp/18917671...  and we had 'class' every day! 

I love this book!!  Each command builds on the other and are easy to practice all day long.  I also learned from others that one word command works better than saying 'go potty', just use 'potty'. 

Our pup was mouthy in the beginning, but I would stop play immediately.  walked away.  and I made sure I initiated play again, not the pup. If he was chewing up toys to be destructive, I would replace with an antler or hard bone for chewing.

I also learned from breeder that to squeal real loud when I got bit as that is how the mother corrects her pups. Maybe your pup never learned the strength of his mouth and he is still figuring it all out.

the one game I avoided playing was 'tug', meaning if pup tried to pull the toy from me, I let him have it. 

I can't quite visualize the walk play biting.  Was he tugging on the leash to play and your hand got in the way? if he is walking and focused on the walk, he can't get to your hands I am thinking in my head.  (granted it is a tired head tonight!)lol

maybe try a harness leash? my thought is to give you better control on body of dog instead of just the neck.  I am not a professional, so take that into consideration.  I just felt like you were overwhelmed and needed some suggestions.

I would try switching up activities so the dog does not get pleasure out of biting. These pups love to learn and it really helps wear them out too!!  You can do this, just be strong and mean what you say.  hang in there!!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Missy mentioned a key point in stopping play biting. If it's not okay for the dog to put his teeth on you (or any extension of you, including a leash, your clothes,etc), then you must never allow it. That means not only eliminating tug of war type games, but any activity in which the dog is encouraged to grab or pull something away from you. I have seen people play with puppies by holding a toy just out of the dog's reach and encouraging him to "get it!" while they are still holding it. Some people even encourage the dog to jump up and grab it. Really not a good idea. To a dog, there is no difference between grabbing  that toy with his mouth and grabbing his leash with his mouth, or even grabbing your hand with his mouth.  Similarly, if you are playing fetch, the dog must drop the ball before you throw it for him; never wrestle a ball out of a dog's mouth and never let him wrestle it away from you. 

[Sarah Kuiper]

He also walks pretty well on a loose leash, then he'll turn (take advantage of the slack of the leash) and jump up on my to bite my arms. From far away it actually looks like I'm getting attacked. I also just picked up a gentle leader head harness so hopefully I'll get better control over his head

[Sarah Kuiper]

Thank you guys. So far sticking to walks back in forth in front of the house then a time out if he bites. I also got a head harness in hopes to control his head better but it seems like he can still turn and bite.(works wonders on pulling though!)  My husband also thought of carrying a muzzle then doing walks farther from home? I think I'd rather have the ability for him to pant even if it was just on for a minute or two.. Has a muzzle ever been used as a training tool?