Grain Free vs. Grain

[Tammy M. Jacomin]

My doodle, Gatsby is seven months old.  He has had bouts with diarrhea for several months.  I have him on Acana Grassland.  He goes through periods of not wanting to eat, which is when he has the diarrhea.  Otherwise he does fine with this food.  Over these last several months I have put him on a boiled chicken and sweet potato diet which clear up the diarrhea for a short period of time, then it's back.  I give him a probiotic (I can't think of the name right now, but it was recommended by this group and starts with a P).  A couple weeks ago, I just couldn't do it anymore so I went to the vet and he said Gatsby has bacteria in his stool and put him on an antibiotic.  Now the diarrhea is worse then ever and he won't eat.  I put warm water on his food and coax him to eat with some success but not much.  Yesterday I took him back to the vet and said something isn't right and I need help figuring it out.  Once again they put him on another antibiotic as well as told me to feed him 4 cans of ID a day for four days.  I know I've heard only negative things about this ID food.  But I don't know what else to do.  First of all, I think I need a new vet.  My vet asked what kind of food I feed Gatsby and when I told her Acana, she never heard of it!!! Then I told her what the ingredients are and she said "Why is he on grain free?  Some dogs need grains.....its not like he is a Wheaten Terrier with a gluten allergy!"  I couldn't believe she said that.  Then she said, "Just because that food has good ingredients it doesn't mean they are good for Gatsby and maybe I need to switch foods". 

I really need some advise.  Gatsby has the best disposition and personality and he just so amazing (I know we all feel that way) so even with this diarrhea every few hours he still has not had one accident in the house.  He barks to go out and is amazing.   Can it be the food?  Can anyone give me some direction?  Last night and this morning he ate the ID and acted like he hasn't eaten in months (which isn't far from the truth). 

Sorry for rambling with this discussion, I'm just so flustered and don't know what to do.  The vet said give him four days on this ID and the antibiotics.  Then if the diarrhea comes back switch foods.

HELP!!!! PLEASE!  Any thoughts/comments are appreciated.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

What was the first antibiotic the vet gave him, and what is the one you're using now? I'm going to guess that the first one was metronidazole (Flagyl) and I'm hoping that he's currently on Tylan, but need to be sure. 

Any time a dog is taking antibiotics, you do need to give probiotics, and the probiotics need to be continued for a few weeks after the meds are stopped. You must give the probiotics at least two hours apart from the meds, too. I'm guessing you're using Proviable, which is a good one. 

Forget the nonsense about some dogs needing grains. Some dogs do okay with grains, but no dog needs them, they provide no health benefits. We have talked here quite often about the documented fact that there is no nutrition curriculum in vet school, and that what most vets know about dog food comes directly from the marketing teams at Hill's and Purina. So disregard your vet's opinion on that. If this issue is the only one you have with your vet, switching vets probably won't help unless you can find one who is more educated on pet nutrition and food, and believe me, that isn't easy. 

The bouts of diarrhea coupled with loss of appetite and the excessive bacteria in the stool do indicate that he may possibly have a digestive disease. Was he treated for giardia as a young puppy? Sometimes, repeated courses of metronidazole in puppyhood can set the stage for an ongoing bacterial imbalance in the gut, causing diarrhea. But before we go there, do you have pet insurance? Diagnostics for digestive disease in dogs can be very, very expensive. 

My first thought is that a limited ingredient formula would help. Acana has their Singles line, which are single protein limited ingredient formulas with lower fat and higher fiber than the Regionals line you're currently using. All of those things are helpful for dogs with chronic digestive issues. I would suggest that you try switching to one of the Singles formulas after the 4 days of Hill's. Choose a protein that he hasn't had much in the past, possibly the Pork and Butternut Squash formula. And be sure to continue the Proviable. 

[Tammy M. Jacomin]

Yes, he was on metronidazole and now is on Clavamox 250 mg.  She also has me giving him 2 tabs 3x a day of pro-pectalin diarrhea tabs.  We got him at 8 weeks and no he has not had giardia or not that I know of.  I do not have pet insurance, maybe I need to look into it.  Do you have suggestions on that?  I am very open to switching him to the Singles formula of Acana.  Do you think that is the best one for me to switch to?  I'm pleased with Acana but am willing to try Origen or Fromm if you think those formulas are any better.

Thank you so much for your reply.  I am fairly new on this site but I read a lot of what you post and you definitely know what you are talking about.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Okay, you do need a new vet. For a bacterial overgrowth in the intestinal tract, Tylosin (brand name Tylan) is the drug of choice.

The problem with these antibiotics your vet is prescribing is that they actually cause a bacterial imbalance in the gut because they destroy all of the good bacteria which is necessary for proper stool formation along with the bad. It's very common for dogs to develop chronic diarrhea after metronidazole. 

I would definitely get pet insurance, every dog owner needs it. We have a lot of discussions here about it.

Regarding the food, it's not about the brands, it's about the specific formula. Neither Orijen nor Fromm makes a limited ingredient formula, and I do think he needs that. 

The other option would be Wellness Simple Solutions Salmon/Potato. 

But the food change alone isn't going to solve the problem. What kinds of treats does he get? Does he eat things he shouldn;t eat, outdoors or even in the house? Are we absolutely positive that he hasn't ingested some type of non-food item? 

[Tammy M. Jacomin]

Ok, I will be switching vets and looking into insurance.  Even without knowing all that you know, I just had a feeling that their course of action wasn't correct.  After the four days of ID I am going to put him on the Acana Singles. 

Treats that I give him are Plato small bites made with duck.  I also occasionally make him something called "Jack's meatloaf", (which is veal, beef, oats, carrots and celery, a little catsup and parmesan cheese).  Gatsby has an Instagram and some of his friends make this treat.  I make it occasionally.  That's it though.  He doesn't really try to pick things up and eat them.  I do give him split antlers and water buffalo horns as well as bully sticks for chewing.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I'd skip the meatloaf for a while. The best treats for dogs with digestive problems are plain 100% protein treats like Pure Bites. I'd skip the bully sticks for awhile, too. Stick with the antlers and horns for chewing.

And be sure to give the probiotics.

[Tammy M. Jacomin]

Thank you again for all of your help.  I just signed Gatsby up for health insurance with PetPlan.  I also contacted my sister who lives about 20 minutes away from me and is very happy with her vet.  I will be switching that also!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I'm so glad you've taken these positive steps! Please keep us posted on how Gatsby does with the food switch. 

[Stella]

Glad that you got the insurance, hopefully you won't need to use it much! As a side note, don't be surprised if they don't cover anything to do with your dogs digestive system in the future. Because it was a problem that you had already investigated with a vet, they may consider it a 'pre-existing' condition and not cover it :(

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Oh, and just to be clear, there is absolutely no possible way that the absence of grains in his diet is what caused either the diarrhea or the bacterial issue. You can take that to the bank, lol. 

[Tammy M. Jacomin]

Hi.   I just wanted to give you an update on Gatsby.  Today I received a call from the day camp he goes to when I'm at work saying that he has diarrhea and there is blood in it.  They said he keeps going and at the point they called, said it is all bloody.  So, I came and picked him up and took him back to work with me.  I called the vet and as usual, was told to bring in a stool sample and they can look for parasites!  These problems have been going on and off for months and that is the answer!  As I told you before I need to switch vets.  So I called the vet my sister has gone to for many years and they are seeing him this afternoon.  The women I spoke to said they would most likely do a diarrhea screening that they send out to test for multiple things.  This makes me feel so much better.  I hope to get some resolve  I'm sorry for rambling but I'm so frustrated.  Gatsby has been dealing with this diarrhea for months and nothing I try or do makes a difference for very long.  I'll let you know what the vet says this afternoon.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Tammy, I expect that whatever the results of the tests are, you are going to come home with metronidazole (flagyl). It is going to be imperative that you also give a good probiotic like Proviable for several weeks, during and after the antibiotics. I cannot overemphasize how important that is. You do not want Fortiflora (Purina) or Prostora (Iams) from the vet. If they sell Proviable or iFlora, that's fine; otherwise, you will need to order some pronto. 

If the fecal test does show giardia, ask for Panacur. It has been shown to be more effective than metronidazole for giardia, and has fewer side effects.

Please do update us after your appointment. 

[Tammy M. Jacomin]

Well I am sure glad I switched to my sister's vet.  They really seemed to listen as I explained Gatsby's problems with the diarrhea, regardless of what food he is eating.  The test came back negative for Giardia.  They sent out a diarrhea panel (Diarrhea Real PCR & FFL Canine) which they said will have result in three days.  If this doesn't show anything, they are going to do another test that they said will look further.  I am giving him the Proviable and the vet was on board with that (so that was nice).  He also said I could put plain greek yogurt in his food since I am always coaxes him to eat. 

I update you with the latest results when I get them.  Thanks as always for your input :)