Scared barking + growling-- Is that the end of my therapy training goals?

[Kaitlin and Ludo]

Hi guys,

Ludo is 7 months old and while we've dealt with some fear issues since bringing him home at 9 weeks, he's a pretty mild, gentle and laid back dog. He's pretty well-trained and friendly and I had visions of us becoming a therapy team though I have never been sure if that would TRULY be something Ludo would like.  I had a "wait and see" attitude about it and would only do therapy if it was something that Ludo would enjoy too.

So, last weekend, my sister threw a 5th birthday party for my niece and there were about 20 people there (Ludo has met them all before a few times) and I brought Ludo with me.  He did really great, though I noticed when my cousin's four children (aged between maybe 6-16) came in, they immediately came to pet Ludo and I could sense him getting overwhelmed... not cowering or anything like that, I could just see him kind of looking for an escape route.  I removed him from the situation and we went outside to play.  No problem.  He had greeted probably 10 other people perfectly at that point.

Later though, the 16 year old cousin was outside trying to play with Ludo when Ludo ran away from him (about 15 feet), started barking and then ran to get behind me where he growled.  I had my cousin back up a little bit, I held onto Ludo's collar (just because a scared dog, in my mind, is an unpredictable dog) and had Parker give him a couple treats which Ludo cautiously accepted. I kept Ludo with me 100% of the time after that but when they were leaving, he growled at the youngest (6 or so years old) from behind my legs.  He just seemed really scared of them and the only thing I can connect is that they overwhelmed him when they first came in the house.  I felt terrible because my cousins didn't DO anything to him and felt like they did something wrong.  There were a few other younger kids there (2, 5 and 6) and he was PERFECT with them.

We aren't around a lot of kids and teenagers, other than my 5 year old niece, so I don't even really think I can currently do a lot of work to counter-condition him to these groups.

So, I'm thinking that therapy is not going to be our path.  I know the dogs can be put in pretty overwhelming situations and I don't ever want Ludo to be afraid.  That coupled with the barking and growling doesn't feel to me like a responsible move for me to make.

Am I in the right line of thinking or am I over-reacting with this isolated incident?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Hi Kaitlin, this is the third post this week here in the training group about a puppy between the ages of 7-10 months suddenly displaying fear barking and fear in general. That's not a coincidence, lol. It's the second fear imprint period. If you look at the most recent discussions here, you'll find some good advice. 

[Kaitlin and Ludo]

Thanks, Karen.  I clearly did not do a good job researching before posting.  I didn't know there was a second fear imprint period-- but it does make a lot of sense.  I have some reading to do :)  Thanks as always for your help!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Here are the other two discussions for you:

http://www.doodlekisses.com/group/trainingmindsets/forum/topics/sta...

http://www.doodlekisses.com/group/trainingmindsets/forum/topics/fea...

[Anita Scalf]

Your observation and handling skills seem to be very good!  

I think you handled Ludo's fear very well by not reinforcing the negative behavior by babying him, but instead trying to create a positive situation.  I don't think that your concerns are overreacting nor do I think that Ludo won't be able to handle this type of situation in the future. Ludo showed a great deal of trust in you and no small amount maturity by moving behind you when he was scared, instead of running away. Ludo told you he was uncomfortable in the only way that he safely could through barking and growling, instead of snapping and biting. 

Dogs go through a fear period between 6-12 months...it is totally normal and that is where Ludo is now.  There is a terrific article about fear periods at http://www.clickertraining.com/node/4365.  That article references the holidays but your situation was very similar. 

Folks with therapy dogs will be able to respond to your concerns about that, but I don't think you need to  give up that idea yet. Ludo is  still  very young....there is a reason service dog training organizations do not begin actual 'service training' in the first year of a dog's life.  There is a lot of similarity in the expectation of service and well-trained therapy dogs and there is a good discussion of fear in a service dog here:  http://servicedogcentral.org/forum/index.php?topic=844.0

I don't have a doodle yet, so I hope my response is not out of line....I mostly just lurk here learning about doodles :) .  But I have lived with a fearful dog for 14 years and we've done lots of work with behaviorists & trainers and exposure to different situations trying to help him work with his fears.  He has come a long way and people rarely notice that he is still uncomfortable in some situations....I can assure you that at 6 months my Winston would not have handled your situation as well as Ludo did. :) 

 

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Your response is definitely not out of line.  In this group, I know I speak for others when I say that we are always looking for input from experienced dog owners who have dealt with and solved training or behavior issues.  Please keep sharing.

[Judith and Addie]

Ludo is a handsome pup. And a pup at 7 months can be going through another fear stage. 

I have a fearful dog so I have been looking into it quite a bit, so I'll try to give some thoughts.

You said that Ludo was overwhelmed and that sounds about right. That is a lot of people all at one time. Something I read about is "trigger stacking" and that might explain his behavior as the day progressed. Trigger stacking as I understand it is that when a dog has a fear reaction, chemicals are released that dissipate slowly, over the course of many hours. So two individual events that alone would not produce a reaction, when one follows the other, the second one puts the dog over its threshold and it reacts. I think that may be why Ludo reacted towards your cousins as you were leaving. So just let him chill next time he goes over threshold and minimize the chances he will be exposed to something he considers scary until his fear hormones dissipate. Don't force him into another event too quickly.

That said, I started one of my dogs in training to be a therapy dog. The different groups  have different requirements but the ones I checked required 1. the dog has his Canine Good Citizen award; 2. the dog is at least 1 year old; and 3. the certifying agency for therapy tests the dog to make certain he has the right temperament. Given that Ludo is 7 months old now, you have time to decide if it is appropriate for him. Once he is older and has CGC training, you may have a better idea. Also, there are different types of therapy. I took mine to senior living places. Others visited nursing homes. There are also programs visiting schools such as ones where a child reads to a dog.

You are not over-reacting but you are being thoughtful because the incident could indicate a temperament not suitable for some types of therapy. But don't rule it out right now. And don't put Ludo into situations where he may be overwhelmed.

One other thing about counter counter-conditioning Ludo you might want to try something I was told. My girl is overly excited around people, especially children. So my trainer suggested I take her to the kids sports games (e.g., soccer, T-ball, Little League) and walk around at a distance she is comfortable giving her treats.Also, you might consider walking near playgrounds, etc.

[Lois Ehrenfeld de Buren]

Hi all, I have a similar problem, but in an older. two year old almost three now, Golden Doodle. My sweet dog Rajah who is a 63 pound male. He does not bark & growl when showing fear @ home, but seems quite scared of children even though
he might have met them before. He is also very shy around some males. Is this unusual with other Doddles? I never saw this behavior when he was younger it is fairly new. When we are out he doesn't behave this way, although he's never been sure of babies!!! I think he's a naturally skittish dog when it comes to alien sounds, however I don't know where this fear of
friendly kids has come from, Any advice? Thanks Lois

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Lois, I do think that Rajah's issues are a different type of problem then the ones that are related to the second fear stage in puppies, and it would probably be best to discuss them in a separate discussion. 

[Lois Ehrenfeld de Buren]

I agree but where should I post this? Thanks Lois

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Click here: http://www.doodlekisses.com/group/trainingmindsets/forum

And then click +Add up at the top right, and you're all set to start your own discussion. 

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Lois, I'd be happy to just cut and paste your comments into a new discussion.  You raise some great questions here.  Just respond here if you'd like me to do that.

[BG and Gavin]

I think you have gotten some excellent insight and advice from other responders and quite frankly I do not have experience with a fearful dog. I just want to say "don't throw the baby out with the bath water." You have lots of time to discover if he is therapy dog material. Gavin is about the soundest dog I have ever known and I still did not get him tested until he was two and a half. Even though he was a natural, he still needed the maturity and training of those two years.