Pitbull history

[Adina P]

Has anyone had a chance to listen to this Fresh Air episode with the author of a book on pitbull history?

Kind of interesting.  I'm one of those people who tends to feel intimidated by them, though I think they are beautiful dogs.  We've had many discussions on this topic, but I thought I'd share this podcast because I learned some new things.

http://www.npr.org/2016/05/10/477350069/friend-or-fiend-pit-bull-ex...

[Laurie, Fudge, and Vern]

What a scary story. It must have been terrifying for the owner of that large dog. 

[Adina P]

I've got some dichotomous thinking on this.  On the one hand I don't believe that pitbulls are necessarily hard-wired to be killers (I think "hard-wired to be killers" is way too loaded of a statement).  They may be more focused and tenacious and scrappy, but I don't think they are looking to find something to kill.  At the same time, when I see a pitbull out in public, I feel nervous and have my eyes out and that owner better have control over their dog. 

I'd be curious what percentage of total pits in the population in a given year are involved the dog-bite stats.  Because while it may be that pits make up a larger percentage of the dog bites in a year, it may be that those dog bites only represent a small percentage of pits in the population.  However, I think it would be pretty difficult to account for all the pitbulls out there. 

[Adina P]

I also don't think it's in all in the "training" because I can't even think of a way that a normal (non-dog fighting person) would even train a dog to run out and attack a random person or dog.  And there are plenty of pit bulls that don't attack or pit bulls that come out of dog fighting rings and are perfectly good pets. 
All the dogs I've had sound pretty intimidating when barking and showing off toward a human or animal outside of the fence or when looking out the window at passerby.  However, if they had a chance to escape the house or fence to reach that person or dog, they would not attack.  I wouldn't be surprised if there was some difference in ability to lower their arousal in the pit bulls that would go out there and attack.  I'm not sure that's "hard-wired to kill" though.  Maybe just "hard-wired to follow-through."

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

As much as I love dogs, I am very cautious around certain breeds or breed mixes with pitbulls being number one on my list to be leery of. Any dog that is large and/or hugely muscular, unless obviously under the owner's control, are dogs I avoid.  I may be considered a wimp but I'm one that hasn't been bitten. Works for me.

[Andrea, Belle and Honey]

I'm with you, Nancy.  I have avoided very large and/or muscular dogs ever since a frightening incident years ago, although it did not involve a pit bull, but a Cane Corso who broke his expandable leash, ran to my children playing with friends and dogs in our cul de sac, and grabbed my cairn terrier Nessie by the neck.  The owner just stood there holding the remains of that ridiculous leash.  Another Mom herded the kids into her house while I tried to release poor Nessie. Fortunately, Nessie had a lot of hair on her neck, and a man mowing his lawn on the next street heard the shrieking and ran through backyards and helped me separate the dogs. The Cane Corso's owner saw blood on the street and threatened to sue us if we hurt his dog.  Of course the blood was all from Nessie, me and the man who helped. The three of us got stitches and were ok in the end, but Nessie was never the same, and my children were uncomfortable with unfamiliar dogs for a long time.The homeowners' association circulated a memo suggesting that we all try harder to get along with each other.  Give me a floppy doodle over a muscle dog any day.

[Amy and Annabelle]

That is terrible. That dogs owner should be ashamed of himself. Poor little Nessie. A couple of years ago, 2 cane corso's killed a man here in Michigan while he was out for a jog.

I think I would have told your HOA where they could shove that memo. It should have been a warning about a man with a vicious dog living in the neighborhood.

[Sue and Buddy]

I hate the argument that it just depends on how a pit is raise because that usually comes from someone that has no idea how to raise or train a dog. I think genetics play a large role in predicting the behavior of a dog. That's why it is recommended when looking for a Doodle to research the breeder. 

This article comes from someone of the Villalobos Rescue Center. She has been involved with pitbull rescue for years:

But truthfully, in dealing with hundreds to thousands in my rescue career, most Pit Bulls that have come thru here, display some form of dog aggression. Maybe not full blown, "I want to kill another dog" but even so much as giving each other the "stink eye" has caused a ruckus. I'm not saying that your dogs are going to "snap" (geez I hate that word) and all of a sudden go on a doggie killing spree. But what I am saying is that most Pit Bulls (yeah yeah, go ahead and cuss me out) have that "genetic make up" of dog aggression. And though they may never display it, to deny it exists, is only potentially putting your dog in a situation that may cause him/her to fail. 

here is the source of the above quote  It is an interesting read.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Yep. That quote is from Tia Torres, one of the top pitbull advocates in this country. I linked it in a previous discussion here about pitbulls: http://www.doodlekisses.com/forum/topics/my-community-is-up-in-arms...

I also hate that "it's how you raise them" argument. I also hate "It's not the dog, it's the owner". The problem with that is that from what I've seen, there are typically only two basic kinds of pitbull owners, other than the trainers who want to showcase their skills by owning a very well behaved, sweet, friendly pitbull. Otherwise, you have the bleeding hearts who identify with the underdog and feel so sorry for these poor misunderstood dogs, (those are the ones who call them "pibbles" and like to tell you their dog will "lick you to death") and you have people whose own temperaments cause them to gravitate toward breeds with reputations that scare people. Neither of those scenarios makes me feel very comfortable.

[Adina P]

Totally agree with you and others on the ridiculous argument  of "it's all in how they are raised."  I think it's more about either the owner has a dog (pit bull or not) under good control or not.  It's not that some people "raise" them to be dog aggressive and others don't.  People who truly know pit bulls and are responsible will go into pit bull ownership knowing they will need to train that dog well and be cautious about its interaction with other dogs, safety, etc.  It would be a clear cut case for me if only those type of people owned pitbulls and pit-like dogs.  It's because that's not the case that I tend to ride the fence on breed specific legislation.  I feel like I can argue both sides because I know trainers who can handle some pretty hard dogs and love pits and other strong breeds.  But I'm also pretty cautious when I see a dog that looks like a pit within running distance.  I still remember the terrifying scene of a little girl walking a bully breed on her own on my street and feeling super angry that any parent would allow a child that size to walk a strong bully breed.  The dog pulled her on her butt.  Nothing terrible happened, but she would not have been able to control it if it had tried to bother someone else or worse.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

"People who truly know pit bulls and are responsible will go into pit bull ownership knowing they will need to train that dog well and be cautious about its interaction with other dogs, safety, etc.  It would be a clear cut case for me if only those type of people owned pitbulls and pit-like dogs.  It's because that's not the case that I tend to ride the fence on breed specific legislation." 

Amen!!!! 

[Jennifer Tramell]

I have not listened to the podcast, but I do have an opinion about pitbulls and similar breeds. 

I think that most people do not consider the BREED of dog when understanding a dog's behavior.  Beagles howl and follow a scent - don't complain because your beagle runs off in pursuit of a rabbit.  Terriers dig for rodents - don't complain when your cute doggie leaves holes in your yard.  Border collies, shelties, cattle dogs, etc. herd - don't complain when your dog chases cars and bites at the tires.  Huskys were bred to run and pull - don't complain when your dog leaves his small yard every chance he gets.  Pitbulls, and their ancestors, were bred to fight and "bait" bulls (grab the bull by the nose and hang on until the owner got control of the animal).  Why then is it a surprise when each of these breeds behave in a way totally normal to their bloodline?

Another thing is that many small dogs are probably more aggressive than many pit bulls.  I have seen some little lap dogs who would do serious damage if they had the jaws of a pit bull.  The problem is that pits have breeding for attacking things and the physique to do damage - a dangerous combination. 

I don't believe that all "bullie breeds" are aggressive, dangerous, or unpredictable just as I don't think all Labs like water.  I do, however, recognize that it takes an certain type of owner to control a powerful breed.  There is no way for me to know if an owner/dog have that kind of relationship so I am on high alert whenever around a pit bull. 

As a side note, I once spoke with an animal control officer who told me that he is more worried about chow chows and chow mixes than pit bulls.  He said that the chows are unpredictable and the mixes can be even worse. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Back in the 70s, before pitbulls were common, Chows were the number 2 breed on the list of reported dog bites. And the number one breed? Dalmatians. :)