What to feed?

[Carolyn & Barkley the Bear]

Hi Everyone!  I can't tell  you how much I love this site.  No matter what my question, I always turn here for great information!

I have a 15 old labradoodle who recently had bouts with Giardia.  I see many of you have had experience with this nasty parasite and you know how happy I was when he was deemed "free" last week.  My problem is he seemed to have developed a slight digestive issue.  With the Giardia I knew what it was from but he STILLl seems to have a few days of loose stools and then goes back to normal.  My vet tech says that Blue Buffalo, (which is what he eats) tends to give gas and loose stools and that I should consider a new brand.

I see that the Fromm line seems well thought of and in my price range but with so many different types I'm not sure what to try....grain free, gold holistic, a la veg....so many choices.

Can anyone guide me in what might be a better choice for a dog with some stomach issues?

Thank you!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Hi Carolyn, we have many discussions about this in The Food Group and the Health Group, along with food suggestions in the Food Group. Briefly, the ongoing stool issues are due to the antibiotics that were used to treat the giardia...most likely, metronidazole, (Flagyl), which is famous for destroying the good bacteria in the gut that's necessary for proper stool formation. You should always use a good probiotic like Proviable any time a dog is being treated with antibiotics, metronidazole in particular, and the probiotics need to be continued for several weeks after the meds are discontinued. 

Regarding food, your best bet is a limited ingredient formula. While Fromm is a good brand, they don't make an LID formula. Wellness Simple Solutions would be an excellent choice. The Acana Singles line would also work. Check our recommended brands list in The Food Group for other LID foods. 

Hope this helps.

[Sam&Bella]

Sorry Karen! I didn't realize that you wrote a comment already! :^)

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I think we were both posting at the same time. :)

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

With Karen's guidance, we got Charlie over his digestive issues.  Proviable wasn't doing its magic. We purchased a human probiotic - an expensive one that has to be refrigerated and fed Charlie Wellness LID.  We kept this up for a month after we finished the meds.  then we gradually switched to Orijen.  It worked for us, finally, and Charlie is fine now.

[Carolyn & Barkley the Bear]

Thank you all so much for that information!  I had no idea about the probiotic use with antibiotics.  Barkley was prescribed Drontol Plus during his two bouts with Giardia.  Are you familiar with that medication?  I certainly am hoping that we have seen our last bout of Giardia...no pretty!  :(

The Wellness food line looks like it is readily available to me so I look into that as well.

Thanks also for the tip on posting in the different groups!

[Nancy & Echo]

Drontol Plus is a dewormer that consists of Praziquantel (pra-zee-kwan'-tell) with pyrantel pamoate and febantel.

According to the FDA labeling,

Drontal® Plus Taste Tabs® Tablets contain three active ingredients having different modes of action and spectra of activity. Praziquantel is active against cestodes (tapeworms). Praziquantel is absorbed, metabolized in the liver and excreted in the bile. Upon entering the digestive tract from the bile, cestocidal activity is exhibited.1 Following exposure to praziquantel, the tapeworm loses its ability to resist digestion by the mammalian host. Because of this, whole tapeworms, including the scolices, are very rarely passed after administration of praziquantel. In many instances only disintegrated and partially digested pieces of tapeworms will be seen in the stool. The majority of tapeworms are digested and are not found in the feces.

Pyrantel pamoate is active against hookworms and ascarids. Pyrantel pamoate acts on the cholinergic receptors of the nematode resulting in spastic paralysis. Peristaltic action of the intestinal tract then eliminates the parasite.2

Febantel is active against nematode parasites including whipworms. Febantel is rapidly absorbed and metabolized in the animal. Available information suggests that the parasite’s energy metabolism is blocked, leading to energy exchange breakdown and inhibited glucose uptake.

I'd be surprised if it had a Huge effect on bacteria, but I don't think this has been studied since we know so little about probiotics.  Sometimes there are complex interactions between bacteria, parasites and viruses, and we certainly have little idea about them.

There is no GUARANTEE that probiotics will help establish a healthier gut environment, but its very hard to study. 

• In people who are generally healthy, probiotics have a good safety record. Side effects, if they occur at all, usually consist only of mild digestive symptoms such as gas.
• On the other hand, there have been reports linking probiotics to severe side effects, such as dangerous infections, in people with serious underlying medical problems.
  • The people who are most at risk of severe side effects include critically ill patients, those who have had surgery, very sick infants, and people with weakened immune systems

https://nccih.nih.gov/health/probiotics/introduction.htm

I'm so glad you seem to be over your dog's Giardia!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I don't know how old this info on probiotics is, but there are many studies in both dogs and people showing the effective of probiotics for digestive disease, including serious digestive disease. It's important to keep in mind that the government is usually very slow to acknowledge the benefits of any type of nutrient or supplement, for financial reasons. 

Here's a link to the list of studies on VSL#3, the human probiotic that Nancy used for Charlie, and which my Jack takes. http://vsl3.com/hcp/scientific-info/

The Iowa State vet school also did a $100,000 study on VSL#3 in dogs, under Albert Jergens, funded by some of the AKC breed clubs. I can't link to it, as most of the info is in PDF format, but you can google it. 

[Carolyn & Barkley the Bear]

Thank you Nancy!  That is great information along with info that Karen sent too.

I am going to keep an eye on his stools for the next couple of days and then switch out the food.  I might even test him again for the Giardia just for piece of mind.  The first time he took the Drontol Plus (4 pills for $120!) he was clear of it after the 4 weeks we had to wait.  A week later he had diarrahea again so I had him retested....Positive again!  So we went another round on Drontol Plus and was cleared last week.  I am just afraid that was incorrect.  I have read that some tests will come back positive only because the stool that was tested did not contain the parasite.

Anyway, I feel so much better armed with all your information on drugs, probiotics and food.  Thank you all for your responses!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

It depends on what kind of test your vet is running. You want a fecal float test, which will only come back positive if there are cysts present. The other type of testing looks for antibodies, which may be present if the dog was previously infected, so the test will come back positive even if the giardia is gone. 

But if you don't clean up thoroughly while the giardia is still present, they can re-infect themselves. That means disinfecting everything the stool has touched, indoors and out. And they can get infected from coming into contact with areas where other infected dogs have defecated.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Some good info on treating giardia:

 https://www.capcvet.org/capc-recommendations/giardia

Note the info under the Treatment section: 

Treatment

• No drugs are approved for treatment of giardiasis in dogs and cats in the United States.
• Metronidazole is the most commonly used extra-label therapy; however, efficacies as low as 50% to 60% are reported. Safety concerns also limit the use of metronidazole in dogs and cats.
• Albendazole is effective against Giardia but is not safe in dogs and cats and should not be used.
• Fenbendazole (50 mg/kg SID for 3 to 5 days) is effective in eliminating Giardia infection in dogs. Fenbendazole is approved for Giardia treatment in dogs in Europe, and available experimental evidence suggests that it is more effective than metronidazole in treating Giardia in dogs.
• A combination of febantel, pyrantel pamoate, and praziquantel (DrontalPlus) is effective in treatingGiardia in dogs when administered daily for 3 days using the dose bands indicated on the DrontalPlus label.
• CAPC recommendations for treatment of dogs
  • Administer fenbendazole (50 mg/kg SID) for 5 days.
  • Alternatively, fenbendazole (50 mg/kg SID) may be administered in combination with metronidazole (25 mg/kg BID) for 5 days. This combination therapy may result in better resolution of clinical disease and cyst shedding.
  • If treatment combined with bathing (see Control and Prevention) does not eliminate infection (as evidenced by testing feces for persistence of cysts), treatment with either fenbendazole alone or in combination with metronidazole may be extended for another 10 days.

Read more here: http://www.doodlekisses.com/forum/topics/olive-poop-and-my-memories...

[Sam&Bella]

I am glad he is over the Giardia! I don't know if Fromm would help with loose stools, but I just recently switched to Fromm and I love it! (so does Bella:) I think you would have better luck with info if you posted it in The Food Group.

I hope that sort of helps:)