starting out right with a puppy

[Lucy & Ellie]

Hi, 

We are getting a goldendoodle in a few weeks and I have some questions. I'm not sure if I should ask here or on the puppy board... but I'm trying here first.

Two years ago we got a labradoodle (Lucy) but she sadly died after eating a sock. She was just over  a year old.

We had JUST started e collar training with her (with a trainer) and were starting to see a little improvement. We only had one lesson before she died though so we didn't get too far.

We want to start out right with this pup. Like I said, Lucy was a maniac. She was particularly jumpy and nippy. I know that this is normal puppy stuff but I want to have a plan in place as to how to train him. 

At first I thought we would start using the e collar to discourage bad behaviors like biting.  It made sense to me that if he gets an uncomfortable buzz from the get-go, he'll stop.  But in all my research, I am reading that you should not start e collars until 5-6 months. And even then, it seems that everyone suggests starting using it for training recall first.

So are e collars not used for deterring negative behaviors? 

And even if they aren't, I guess they're used for recall, a quick sit, and other things... but we'll be working on things like sit, etc, before 5-6 months! So then are e collars just to get quicker obedience? 

Just trying to understand. And I also do realize that we may not even need an e collar with this pup. Lucy was just particularly out of hand. This dog could be completely different.

Another thing I hope that we see with this pup is that he really loves our kids they are 10 years old). We have a maltese who loves ME. She tolerates the kids just fine but she prefers me. Lucy was still young so I'm wondering if the love of the kids comes with time or what. Is there something we can do to foster it?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I have never and would never use an e-collar for any dog, and I have lived with dogs for 58 years. There are much better ways to train your dog and to deter negative behaviors than to shock him, or "buzz" him, or do anything that causes discomfort, pain, or fear. You want to build a bond of mutual trust with your dog through positive training methods. 

All dogs are going to bond strongest to, and prefer to be with, the person who is the primary caretaker, and that's usually going to be you. They may like the kids just fine, but not as much as they like you.  Again, I grew up with dogs and have had my own dogs as an adult in homes with kids and grandkids, and known many many more through my rescue work, , and I have never seen a dog who preferred the kids to adult caregiver, ever. 

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

My childhood dog did prefer me, Karen.  Truly, she was my dog.  I am sure my mom fostered that concept, but I spent the most time with her so that might be the reason.  That dog was my heart dog and she lived to be in her 20's.  Amazing dog.

[Adina P]

There's a place for ecollars, but I wouldn't use one with a puppy.  They are *most* useful for dogs that work at a distance (think hunting, etc) where they won't HEAR commands and might need to be recalled from a long distance.  They can be used to deter dogs from bad behaviors, but as a first line with a pup, no.  Only because there are so many simple ways to keep a puppy from doing annoying things and you're not always going to have the remote on your at all times.  If you were consistent enough to carry the remote everywhere, catch every naughty behavior and do it in a timely fashion, then you could implement other techniques just as well with that much attention.

[Joani, Skadi & Elli]

Ah...bringing a new puppy into the family...how well I remember!  Skadi was incredibly bitey and wild as a puppy.  Through patience, love, patience, training, and lots of patience, we survived Skadi's puppyhood.  We "inherited" Skadi when she was 3 months old...and what a "monster" puppy.  Extreme biting and wildness.  I had a trainer come over as soon as she could to help me control the little darlin'.  I gave up many hours of my life to train Skadi.  Not only private training, but also many many puppy classes.  Those first few months have many folks wondering if they made the right decision.

If you chose to use an e-collar I would have someone train with you and your dog.  If your dog goes off leash they are useful.  I have put the collar on my forearm and tested the vibration mode...it's harmless, but it gets your attention.  Good luck and have fun!  

[Cindy and Olive (Ollie)]

Lucy, it's so nice to hear you're back. I remember when that happened and was so sorry. Best wishes with the new doodle.

What has helped us a LOT with two puppies in two years (we also lost the first traumatically young, to cancer) is firstly -very close, constant supervision (unless crated). Yes, it is tiring and stressful a lot - you need backup. It isn't a seemingly easy answer, like a collar. But it works best, I swear. It enables you to consistently reinforce and correct as need be. It's an investment in future behavior until you can trust more.
Secondly, puppy play dates! They're SO fun and they drain any naughty energy like you wouldn't believe. Olive is a mush sweetheart the whole day after her play date and a good girl. I have fun, too.
Lastly, Doggy Dan online and his five golden rules are easy to live with and he is easily at your fingertips to get you through the challenges of the first year.
Again, best wishes with your new guy!! Post pics :)

[Lori, Winnie, Bob and Indie]

There are so many different training techniques out there- positive only, negative reinforcement, clicker, e-collar, etc. I agree that it can be hard to know what is the "right" way to train. My Winnie was very jumpy and nippy, and believe me when I say that I researched ALL training techniques on how to deal with it. The best thing that I found was to use my voice as the negative reinforcement and to immediately praise positive behavior.

After watching videos and consulting with people using various techniques, I came to the conclusion that IF I ever used an e-collar it would be only be for a long distance recall. When used in that instance, the whole idea is a buzz to get their attention and get the dog to turn back to you. My dogs have pretty good recall- trained the "old fashioned" way. But, when one of them chased a deer in the woods recently, an e-collar would have been a nice backup...

[Laura and Angus]

I don't think you'll need the E collar for discouraging unwanted behaviors - you can pair a word (e.g. "No") with an unwanted stimulus (e.g. spray bottle, can of pennies, etc) so that your word becomes unwanted thing. We rarely even say "No" these days because a simple reminder of "uh uh" is enough for Angus to correct his behavior. For a corrector, we used the Pet Convincer 2 from Amazon. It's an air spray canister that sprays a puff of CO2. Our trainer taught us to say "No" calmly and then calmly spray our pup in the side of his back hip area - Angus really did not like the hiss sound it emits. This item saved us since Angus was crazy bitey and would totally flip out biting the leash on walks.

As others have said, you may not even need something so intense for your new baby, but I agree it helps to have a plan! Good luck with the new addition!

[Lucy & Ellie]

Thanks, guys! Thanks for the welcome (back) and the advice!

I love researching and being proactive so that we have a good idea of what we want to try in place. I appreciate hearing that an e collar probably won't be needed.

I do have another question I meant to ask. I always wondered if the way we played with Lucy made a big difference or not with the way she behaved. I think most puppies are pretty wild by nature, but the kids and DH also played pretty crazy with her. Things like tug of war, having her chase them, ... and DH would almost wrestle around with her. These seem like normal ways to play with a puppy, but do they encourage craziness? 

What are some ways to play that could possibly be more appropriate, at least until she learns good behavior?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Tug of war, wrestling, chasing games, and any type of play in which a dog is encouraged to grab something from a human, or grab onto a human,  will all contribute to nipping and wild out-of-control behavior. There are many discussions here about appropriate ways to play with puppies that do not encourage undesirable behaviors. I'll try to find you some links when I have a little more time. Hide and seek, and games of fetch are two appropriate ways to play. (Sitting in a circle on the floor and taking turns rolling a ball to the dog is a good indoor family game). Basic rules: Never ever use your hands as toys for the dog to grab. (Men seem to do this a lot). Never hold a toy out of the dog's reach and encourage him to jump for it or try to grab it. If the dog's teeth ever touch human flesh or clothing, the game ends. When playing fetch, the dog must drop the ball or toy before you throw it for them; never wrestle it out of his mouth. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

And whatever else you do, never allow anyone to encourage the dog to jump up on them! A dog should never ever be standing with his back feet on the floor and his front feet on you! If he does, he needs to be corrected, not encouraged with petting or positive attention. Don't teach the dog to stand on his hind legs to "beg" for treats, either. (In addition to encouraging jumping on people and counter surfing , this is really bad for a puppy's joints.) The earlier the dog learns that nothing good ever happens unless "all four are on the floor", the better off you'll be, especially with kids.  It's really important that all family members be on board with these rules, as consistency is key. 

[Cindy and Olive (Ollie)]

OMG Lucy, yes - playing and reinforcing wild behavior encourages more! I know it sounds SO boring, especially to boys/kids, but being calm-assertive is HUGE. I'm so tired of saying, "be calm, use a softer voice" to my boys. These puppies read your energy. Whatever behavior you reward (reward= a look, a touch, excited voice reaction) they tend to repeat. Even tug is controversial when they're young, some say it can make them more aggressive. Chase is a bad game to start because if you need her to drop something or put her leash on, she will play chase and run away instead of drop it. You should initiate everything - not him - you're in charge. A great piece of advice I got was "always stand when it is playtime and when you're sitting, she sits or plays by herself" - that way he never expects 'play' from you while you're sitting! Instead, he knows it's relax time.
Ways to play? Puppy play dates, fetch for treats, lots of chew toys... when they're 8-10 weeks all they do is follow you, so we had fun outside with her - whenever she followed we said "come" and treated. It was a great start to train for a recall easily! We took her to outdoor coffee shops, restaurants, Home Depot, pet stores, to parks and playgrounds, train stations (held her until vaccinated) and signed up for classes which was fun.
Consistently discourage/ignore the unwanted behaviors from the start, always reward the good, and you'll be onto a great start! :-)

[Lucy & Ellie]

Oh THANK YOU! Our family will be having a big talk about appropriate puppy play! I'm glad to hear that I was right about rough play. 

I really appreciate every bit of wisdom on these boards.