GIARDIA Struggles

[Dr Karen Hoving]

Greetings all.

I'm new so apologies if I've put this on the wrong place!

Bella (5 1/2 mo Sheepadoodle) had some diarrhea prior to xmas. I did the chicken/rice/pumpkin diet. It didn't get better but vet was closed over xmas weekend and day after. So we went in on Tuesday. They did a fecal test at the vet and sent one out. GIARDIA- she then said it was either "medium" or "Moderate" ?

She put her on Flagyl (a 7 day script) and 5 days of Panacur. The first day on the Flagyl (she started with that first, then added the Panacur day 2)  her poop was great! Then we had issues getting the panacur down her- tried Peanut Butter(a bunch of people online said that was a good option) and she ate it. Her poop went back to mush. Vet's assistant said that it might be the peanut butter so I put it in pumpkin (real pumpkin not the pumpkin pie stuff) and divided it up into 2 dishes one am, one pm.

We are on day 6 and her poop still looks mushy! The vet is closed (I'm going to call tomorrow) but i don't know if this is normal. I know Giardia can be a bugger to get rid of. Is this bc of the antibiotics perhaps? I added Goats Milk (as Probiotic) about 3 days ago (1/2 cup according to bottle-for her weight which is 34 lbs).

Now 2 of her "puppy walking buddies" have it (so we are avoiding them obviously). The vet told us she could be around other dogs 72 hours after the antibiotics. We told everyone-they weren't worried. BUT the bottom line is since dogs can have giardia but be asymptomatic, and we all walk at the same park, we don't know (nor does it matter) where it started. 

So, in your non-professional opinions (disclaimer in other words) could she have been reinfected while on meds?Again her poop was normal the first day after Flagyl, then went mushy (could it be the Panacur? Although research says that is better for it that Flagyl).

Also she's not pooping more often, 2-3 x a day- its just pudding.

If you have any advice or thoughts let me know-

Hugs,

Karen and Bella 

[Dr Karen Hoving]

Thanks everyone!

I was wondering. BC Giardia will be positive for a month minimum.If we treat w/ Flagyl and Panicur. It kills the disease but it messes with the gut- so the dog keeps having the poops. We go back to the vet, they retest-more giardia (which may or may not be accurate bc it's been w/in a month BUT our puppies have the poops-so vets re treat).

My point is- IS IT POSSIBLE that the diarrhea people say occurs after Panicur is bc  panicur doesn't STOP diarrhea it just kills the besties. But as you said, the cysts shed for a while after(Which might in a sensitive dog or a puppy?) cause diarrhea.

So, I'm going to start on the probiotics (ALSO how many vets actually suggest a GOOD probiotic-as opposed to the Purina forti flora crap) tomorrow when they arrive.

Stick to her kibble add  pumpkin.

Assume she will have the poops for a few weeks (BUT will call the vet- and be blown off).

Since the last thing I posted I've been on a large number of sites when I put in Panacar and diarrhea. MANY people are reporting exactly what I did. When Bella started the Flagyl she cleared up immediately (at that point the poop was at the lab so we didn't know what was up so she  just gave us flagyl ).THEN it came up positive for giardia and put her on pancar. THATS when she started again with pudding poop. AFTER DAY 1 of panacar.

SO I finished the Panacar yesterday and her poop,as I said, is watery (the way it was before we started the flagyl.

Thanks to everyone for all of your advice. I am going to assume that it will take a few weeks for the Proviable DC to do its thing. But no treats or anything but kibble and pumpkin. Unless you think I should go with the chicken/pumpkin/rice event to help her gut feel better.

Thanks again, don't know what I'd do without you all!

[Carolyn Shusterman]

Karen, Why the hurry to get Bella sprayed?  Both of you are going through a lot of stress right now. Are you really happy with the vet you are seeing?  Why not wait until Bella has normal poops and your not so pooped out (tired).  We're talking surgery here, best both of you are in top mental and physical condition.   

[Dr Karen Hoving]

Hi Carolyn

Well the vet seems to be concerned about the risks if she goes into heat. Now I keep saying she won't be 6 months old until the 18th. So why not wait until then (that was the age most dogs got spayed before they decided it was better to do them at 9 weeks-well mostly SPCA dogs.

She has never seen a sheepadoodle-I even told her when she ordered the flagyl that, albeit rare, some OES had a genetic hiccup that caused severe problems with the flagyl-she looked at me like I was a Shrink playing a "real Doctor-Vet." Never heard of it (I had done a lot of research about sheep dogs before I got Bella. I had had multiple standard poodles,andI know she's 1/2 Sheepdog, but as an example I have Lupus and RA. Everyone woman n my mother's family has Lupus every man RA. I got both. That is 1/2 of my gene pool but I won the crap lottery.

So yes.Every time I call I ask. And from what I understand some vets don't care, some refuse to operate.

This one doesn't care (Although after I call this morning and tell her the dog's poops are worse on a drug that is supposed to firm the poop up and I want to speak with her, things may change quickly). I got the name of another vet so I'm hoping to get a second opinion soon. 

In other words good idea.  I just don't know how soon Sheepadoodles go into heat-is it 6-9 months like most dogs or different for a larger breed?

Lots to think about.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I'll reiterate my suggestion to find a new vet. This one seems to be out-of-date. Many vets these days are advising to hold off on spaying/neutering larger breed dogs until they are closer to a year old and the growth plates in the bones are closed or close to it, to prevent orthopedic disorders.

Your vet might be interested in this article from UC Davis Veterinary school: https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/golden-retriever-study-suggests-neuter...

And the discussion we had here about this: http://www.doodlekisses.com/group/healthandmedicalissues/forum/topi...

[Dr Karen Hoving]

FINALLY vet spoke with me- amazing it was the idiot techs giving me the run around.

She was VERY pro probiotics. 

Wanted me to NOT spay her until she's better (YAY)

And Tuesday I'll go back and she's going to see if there are active cysts(I think that's what she called it) in the stool. If not then the probiotics should take care of it.

OH the f-ing techs had written down that I had been changing her food every week (WTH). I told her only Precise and the Rice/chicken poop diet. 

She wanted me to use the Royal Canon puppy food -but I didn't agree until I spoke with someone here-if it's like Hills- NO WAY. She suggested I add it to her precise.

So, I need to know if anyone knows how much of the proviable dc I should give her (she 35 lbs) and do I need a PRE biotic (like apple, banana) also? (unless there is a powder one).

Another vet isn't off the table. I just felt better after speaking with her directly. From now on I'm not talking to techs- just having her call, as she said 
"thats what I'm here for"

Thanks everyone...I know it will take a few weeks for probiotics to help. I know every dog is different but if you could give me an idea how long it might take (I know who knows! But if I know there will be no change for X Weeks I won't worry until after that).

Thanks (and yes I know you aren't a vet=disclaimer it's no one's fault)

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Royal Canin is just like Hill's; avoid all Rx foods like the plague unless you have no choice. They contain nothing that is therapeutic or medicinal, and what they do contain is cheap junk with a premium price tag. Most of us here have learned to ignore our vets' opinions and recommendations about food. As I mentioned earlier, there is NO nutrition curriculum in vet school, (documented by Marion Nestle, PhD among others) and what most vets do know about dog food comes courtesy of the Hills and Purina salespeople. There is a clear conflict of interest in your vet selling you food, especially when it's garbage. And don;t forget that the vet makes makes the same profit on it that a store does. 

The Proviable should have dosing instructions on the package. You do not need a "prebiotic." Again, I would keep things simple right now.

It's very hard to say how long it might take for the probiotic to help. We don;t even know at this point if she's negative for the giardia. When did the vet suggest retesting?