Dog training philosophies

[Stacy]

I’ve had this dialogue running through my head for a while, and I would love to be able to have a discussion. Purely theoretical. I think I’ve brought it up before, but I feel that, while there are a lot of opinions, we often don’t get into the *why* we hold the opinions that we do. And that’s what I would like to delve into.

I follow three trainers on the internet. Two are APDT dog trainers. Purely positive. One of them is the trainer that I hired for Maggie. He also has a background in neuropsychology. I think he is the right type of trainer for Maggie. The other trainer I follow calls himself a balanced trainer. He uses an e-collar to train dogs. Maggie ate his book. That will tell you what she thinks of that! But he has amazing success with dogs who have failed a lot of other trainers. Not all of the dogs, but a significant number come in to him with bites, human and dog, on their record and problems that, if not addressed, spell the end of these dogs lives. And I’ve seen his videos of these dogs turning things around. Dogs who come in clearly aggressive, wearing muzzles and trying to eat everyone who, in a matter of days are attentive, healing, and able to moderate their behavior. 


The balanced trainer gets a lot of hate from the positive reinforcement trainers. And I’m still not sure why. I see the dogs with their e-collars at the park. And they look like happy well adjusted dogs. They don’t look like they’re afraid of their owners. That bond doesn’t seem to be hurt by the training methods. And they use a lot of positive reinforcement too, but the balanced trainer’s opinion is that there are limitations to training when the dogs don’t have consequences for their choices. And that we are harming them by not having clear expectations and boundaries. I see a lot of parallels between the way we parent children and dogs, but that’s probably a different discussion.

My dad has a good friend who is an e-collar trainer. He actually trained my brothers nutty German shorthair. Their theory for Maggie’s crate aversion is to put her in the crate with the e-collar, get her to settle and then correct her for the behavior where she tries to get out. (Don’t worry, I don’t listen to much of what my dad says - I don’t like his politics either.) I can see that backfiring with a dog who then thinks that the crate is a shock box. At the same time I sort of see it as a thing that could work, but something I’m not willing to try with Maggie. The positive trainer’s theory of putting treats in the crate and hoping that she gets used to it doesn’t work either. And maybe Maggie is just a dog who can’t be crated. Since we seem to have figured out a work around for it I’m okay with that. But I still feel like having a dog who is comfortable in a crate is a really good thing.

Anyway, I sort of drifted. I guess what it comes down to is that I see a lot of people who don’t like the e-collars. They will tell you how much they don’t like the e-collars. But I don’t see a lot of good solid arguments for *why* they don’t like them. And I would really like to just have a conversation about what people think about the subject.

Thanks! Stacy

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I think you might get "better" responses in the Training Group, if only because there is a group of people there with a LOT of experience with training of all kinds, and who have read enough on the subject to articulate their reasons for feeling as they do about certain forms of training.
We have also discussed the issues you're asking about here in the Training Group. 

Why I don't like e-collars:

1. I don't care how many people tell me they put the collar on their arm and it didn't hurt, I am violently opposed to shocking my dog. Period. I could give you a little smack that didn't "hurt" either; so is smacking your dog a good method?
2. There are many dogs, doodles included, who end up "collar-wise", and if you want to know what that means....Training Group, lol. But here's a hint: The dog knows when he does or doesn;t have the collar on, and is not really learning to make the right choices for the right reasons, and that's the goal of training...at least, that's my goal. Bolting out the door of the grooming shop because the collar's not on...um, no thanks. 

3. There are also a lot of dogs who will totally ignore the shock if they are panicked or aroused enough. Again, doing or not doing what you want/need/will keep them safe because of a collar, not because of a bond or an understanding of the choices. 

I think there are reasons that "positive only" doesn't work for every dog or for every sitaution. But the alternative to "positive only" does not have to include electric shocks. There are other ways to teach and correct. 

[Stacy]

Maggie in particular doesn't have any behaviors that would need shock collar training. She's really a very good girl. Sometimes I have to remind myself that she's only 1 1/2. Katie was hell on wheels at that age. I kept telling myself that she would calm down and stop eating everything in the house when she turned 2. Maggie is much calmer.

I  think the real problem is that I don't have a good rebuttal when I say I don't want to train that way. Not that I need one, but I do like to be right. My dad always says, "well, we disciplined you and you don't think you were abused do you? The dog has to know who is the boss." And well, I don't think I was abused. And I did get spanked on occasion. And my sister doesn't seem to believe in discipline for her kids, and I can already see some behavioral issues developing down the line. Though that's a completely different issue from the dogs. 

About being collar-wise, the e-collar people use the same argument about the treat people. They say they shouldn't always have to carry treats and "bribe" the dog. I just think it's funny that both sides of the argument are using the same example to make their point. 

I felt guilty when I physically put Maggie into a sit in class. I had been trying to lure her into a sit for weeks with no luck. And she seems to get it now. But I would rather train her without forcing her to do things. They provided us with a "training collar" ie a choke chain at class, but said we don't have to use it. I don't want to pop her, or let her correct herself, or strangle her. I don't think she needs that. I think she wants to do what I ask, but she doesn't always know what that is. And she wasn't raised in an environment where she learned to just offer behaviors. I really have no complaints about how she's doing though. We went to the dog park again today. I'm still not quite brave enough to take her off the long line, but I just let her drag it and she stays right with me. She explores a little, but checks in frequently. Once we get the basics of obedience down I think we're going to have so much fun. I think she would like to try new things like a little agility, maybe some scent work. I would like to get her CGC. I imagined us going into hospitals and doing a little volunteer therapy work. I don't know if she will ever be comfortable with that, but who knows. She may surprise me. She likes to go out into the world. 

I think sometimes I hear these people talking about the e-collar training and they make it sound like a short cut. And it's hard to see what the potential negative effects can be. Even though it just feels wrong to me I have a hard time articulating why I don't want to go down that road with my dogs.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The thing is, you don't have to articulate why you don't want to go down any particular road, with your dogs or with anything else. You are not comfortable with it, and that's good enough. 

Dogs do need to know "who is boss", or as I prefer to think of it, who is in charge. It makes them feel secure to know that in any given situation, you've got it handled and they can just relax. But the way to show them that isn't with electric shocks, IMO. It's by actually being a leader. Easier said than done, and I struggle with it just like everyone else. But I do aspire to being the benign dictator that I truly believe every dog needs and wants.

[Stacy]

I always feel like I need to defend my point of view. Maybe I need to work on that. 

I try to be a good leader. I don't know how successful I am, but I try. I feel like I've always had good dogs. Maybe not the most obedient dogs out there, but well balanced secure, friendly dogs. I've always been able to do anything I needed to with them without any trouble. I can trim toenails with a fuss. I can take things out of their mouths. Maybe I've just been lucky and had easy dogs, or maybe I've done a little something right. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Oh and for me, treats are a tool for initially teaching the dog what you want them to do. Edible "clicks" if you will, lol. I don't give a dog treats for a down-stay 5 years down the road. :) 

[Stacy]

Katie still needs a treat for come inside from the yard. She's got me well trained.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Mine always get treats when they come inside from the yard, even when they want to. Old old habit.

[Stacy]

Come is so important. It's okay to reinforce it. That's what I tell myself at least. The truth is that she just stands at the door and looks at me until I get her treat. I really am trained to give her a treat when she comes in.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Also regarding "I see the dogs with their e-collars at the park. And they look like happy well adjusted dogs. They don’t look like they’re afraid of their owners."

What a dog's behavior at the dog park "looks like" tells you nothing about what kind of bond or relationship he/she has with the owner.

What if I said "I see dogs whose owners feed them Ol' Roy at the park and they look like happy healthy dogs. They don't look like they are being fed cheap, unhealthy garbage by their owners."

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

     Dogs need to mind us because they respect us as their boss, however they got to that mindset. Hopefully, however it is that the dog was trained to respond to a command,  it ends up responding because praise and pleasing the owner is of utmost importance to the dog.  Dogs who have been well-trained lose that training when it is not reinforced all of the time (mine are the perfect example of that) and that is the owner's fault.

I think that in general, positive reinforcement training is a good first option, but I also feel strongly that dogs, like kids, need consequences for misconduct. Dogs who have had serious issues and are on their last chance, need serious training by qualified (we won't go into who is and isn't qualified right now) people. I also think that those who use treat training and don't wean from it are doing the dogs a disservice. 

I also feel there is a difference between making a dog feel safe and the usual obedience training. You are training Maggie to feel safe and build her confidence as well as working on obedience - I don't think a shock collar to teach crating should ever be an option - for her or any dog.  I am not opposed to e-collar training in the right setting. 

Charlie has been with us a year and a half and we are now working on training. Our main issue is that he humps dogs when meeting them for the first time - he is not above humping humans, especially children, when meeting them initially either.  This has become unacceptable.  .... Charlie is recovering from a disastrous dog park incident right now. His staples get removed on Monday......       We have 6 sessions with a trainer beginning in May.  When we had the consult, the trainer discussed other behaviors Charlie has that coincide with the  humping, and how he will teach us to divert him before the incidents. He uses positive reinforcement (treats, a ball, whatever works) fading to listening to us for praise.   I want this to work and plan to give it my all.  IF this doesn't work, I will consult a trainer certified in e-collar use and if Charlie has to wear an e-collar when we are out, then he will. 

[Stacy]

Poor Charlie! That sounds like a bad dog park day. Did the incident stem from humping? I'm glad that's not one of our issues. I think you're right. In some situations the e-collar has to be better than putting the dog to sleep for aggression problems.

I can't imagine what Maggie would need it for. Not liking the crate (and subsequently peeing in the house when no one is home) is really her only problem behavior. Staying in the garage when I'm gone seems to have fixed that, short term at least. She has a recliner and a bed out in there now. We're good until it gets hot and then I'm going to have to put air conditioning out there or get her to stay in her crate in the house. I think sometimes it seems easier to look for some magic solution than to do the work to achieve our goals.

The other option I've looked into with crates is the impact dog crate. My big fear with the crate I have now is that she will fight hard enough to hurt herself on it. I think the impact crate would be safe. But it's a 700 dollar crate. And I don't want her to be miserable in there, even if I can make her stay inside. It's a difficult situation with no clear answer. I didn't really think that shock training her to the crate was a good idea. But no one really has any ideas that I haven't heard. And the things I've tried aren't really working. Maybe I will win the lottery and just put in tile. But even that won't help us on vacation. It's just this one little stumbling block that I don't know how to overcome. This, and if she would decide she wanted to sleep with me she would be an absolutely perfect dog. 

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

It's a long story, but it would have been because Charlie wanted to hump. He was inadvertently pushed into another dog, who reacted and he was bitten. 

Having to be leashed to us for the last two weeks has been good for him actually as he is listening to our commands better and I am better at telling him once, then waiting for compliance. So there has been a positive.