Poodle Colors (and other questions)

[Stacy]

I know we don't have a large group of poodle people in the doodle forum, but sometimes it's intimidating to walk into a group of poodle experts and ask the novice questions. Sometimes a girl confuses a cairn terrier with a border terrier and is persona non-grata forever! So, I thought maybe I could bring some questions here as I gain some poodle knowledge for the future. 

AKC doesn't recognize multi-colored poodles for conformation purposes. And I had a lightbulb moment the other day (thanks, Karen!) about how good AKC breeders feel about people breeding multi-colored poodles. But I still don't understand why. I've done a little reading and it looks like multi-colored poodles have been around forever. Has AKC ever recognized them? I thought I read that, but now I can't remember my source. 

My other question is UKC. I know there are a lot of... not well respected breeders who get championships from UKC and then sell puppies as champion bred. And that it isn't the same thing to be a UKC champion as an AKC champion. But I've also read that AKC conformation is highly political and it's nearly impossible for an owner handled poodle to get a championship. That it's more about who you are and know than about the dog. Now, that might just be sour grapes from someone who isn't winning, but is it possible that it will become so political that good breeders will start showing in UKC, giving it more legitimacy? 

I also don't understand why other countries recognize a moyen size poodle and AKC doesn't. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I'm not sure where you're seeing that multi-color Poodles (purebred names get capitalized, lol) have been around forever. The genetics just aren't there. There is a piebald allele which is responsible for what we call "parti" coloring in Poodles. There is also a very rare "Agouti" gene which is responsible for black and tan, "phantom" type of coloring. And that's it. No merle, no tricolors, nothing else. If you see Poodles with these colorings, you can be sure there is some other breed in there. There isn;t even a code for registering a merle Poodle.
This is the best article I've found that explains all this:  https://www.dogenes.com/poodle/pdlcolor.html
The AKC has never recognized any Poodle coloring other than solid colors. I've heard a few explanations as to why. First and foremost is that recessive and rare colors in any breed are usually linked to genetic health issues; this is one reason white German Shepherds and merle Great Danes are also not recognized. Good breeding is supposed to be about breeding away from genetic health issues. Also, the rarer a color is, the shallower the gene pool is, and a shallow gene pool is not what you want when you are looking to improve the overall health and soundness of any species. 
From a strict confromation point of view, parti coloring and patterns can detract from the appearance of a dog in terms of viewing the dog's lines. When viewing a top line in profile, for example, parti coloring can make the topline appear like waves in the ocean, lol, and make it hard to reaslly see the lines. This may seem silly or superficial, but remember that these restrictions do apply to show dogs, lol, and in showing, looks do matter....a lot. 
There's no question that AKC conformation is political, but it's not true that owner handled dogs have a harder time earning championships. Jasper's father and paternal grandmother were owner handled to their championships, and that grandmother won at Westminster, the first Miniature Poodle "of color" (meaning other than black or white) to have ever done so. On his mother's side, there are even more owner handled champions. The thing about it is that there are thousands of shows, and therefore thousands of opportunities to win points toward a chanpionship. So if this show is politically stacked against your dog or your lines, the next one and the one after that may not be. 
Regarding the UKC, I have a friend who is deeply involved in Poodle performance sports, including conformation, who made my favorite comment: "If a dog can walk, he can get a UKC championship title." To me that pretty much sums it up. People don't tend to place much value on those things that are easily gotten.
There are lots of Poodle people in this country who support the development of a fourth size Poodle. But it has to be done correctly, as all breeds have to be developed and that includes closed stud books, meticulous record keeping, and absolutely NOT the breeding of a Miniature to a Standard Poodle; that last is a genetic nightmare. 

[J and Riley (and Luna)]

I started looking into poodle colour genetics a little bit when researching Bernedoodles.  Breeders don't seem to advertise exactly how they get tricolor bernedoodle puppies but from what you are saying my guess is that the poodle needs to have the Agouti gene (phantom poodle).

Riley's sire was a parti poodle - breeder said tricolor was not possible which would make sense if it's that rare recessive Agouti that's required.

Found this interesting fact sheet about the Agouti gene.  Doesn't mention poodles though.

https://orivet.com/media/c4ca4238a0b923820dcc509a6f75849b/Agouti.pdf

I do understand the point about parti coloring "distracting" from things.  As with anything it's a lot easier to see the shape of something if it's a solid colour rather than covered in a pattern.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The color genetics of Bernese Mountain Dogs would be totally diferent from those of Poodles, as in all breeds. In some breeds, merle is normal, in some, it's aberrant. In some, solid white is desirable; in others, it's a sign of serious health issues.  Tri-color is imperative in BMDs, and the breed standard is pretty strict about the markings, too. http://www.bmdinfo.org/illustratedbmd/color_markings.php

As for Bernedoodles, it's possible that the whatever genes are responsible for the tricolor pattern are dominant. 

And this is an excellent article about color genetics in dogs in general. 
https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/genetics-basics-coat-color-g...

[J and Riley (and Luna)]

I think the agouti gene is shared between breeds though since it's a generic "mammal" gene.  There are a bunch of variants and I'm having a hard time figuring out which alleles exactly poodles would have but Bernese seem to have the a(t) (how the heck do you superscript in here) for tan points so you would need an a(t) as well from the poodle to get the tan points.

I imagine this is why it's hard to find because as you said it's considered a fault in poodles in North America so a well-bred poodle shouldn't be a carrier.  

"Other alleles include sable (a^s), where the black and yellow are found in the same hairs, and black-and-tan (a^t), where they are in different regions. Both are rare in the Poodle and are considered a fault in North America and many other countries"

from here:  https://www.dogenes.com/poodle/pdlcolor.html

[Stacy]

I think this is fascinating. Thank you for taking the time to write this. I like to know why. And health issues are definitely a good reason. I guess I was speaking mostly of parti color dogs, I just didn't want to discriminate against all the other interesting colored Poodles out there. Certainly I'm the first one to say that you can't believe everything you read on the internet, but just randomly browsing without checking sources I come across articles like this: http://www.caninehorizons.com/_Parti_Color_Poodles.html that supposedly shows pictures of parti colored Poodles from the 1700 - 1800s and indicates that they have been discriminated against for no real reason. I've also seen people say that black and/or white Poodles are the "best" Poodles, maybe because they've been around longer than some of the other colors? I would have to google again to be sure that's what they said. Genetics are definitely complicated and it seems that there are more opinions than hard facts. 

I'm glad to know that owner handled dogs can still do well. I don't think I would ever show in conformation. I'm not a breeder. We would be performance events if we ever get brave enough to compete in anything. It's too bad those UKC championships don't mean anything. It's just like Katie's "papers." I have them, but what's the point? They don't mean anything. Katie is still a very sweet mixed breed dog. Her paperwork doesn't do anything for her. 

I wish I had a dog mentor who was geographically close. I don't want to be a breeder, but I would love to know all things dog. There is so much dog stuff I want to do! 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The blacks and whites have the deepest gene pools, by far, so just going by the odds, you're going to have a greater number of dogs with better bone structure, better conformation, better temperaments, better everything. I had always heard that the whites had the best bone and were the soundest structurally, and the blacks were the smartest. Certain color lines are associated with certain characteristics, especially when you get to the top dogs of a particular color in a particular size. Example: the silver Minis are known to dominate the field in agility. You will notice that you almost never see any color Poodle other than black or white in the major televised dog shows. And there's a reason for that. The colors are much more spectacular in the show ring, and yet....

Years ago, you didn't see many browns, and reds were non-existent. Among Poodle people, it was thought that the browns were less intelligent and less focused in performance, again, maybe because the gene pool was so shallow. But a lot of people were attracted to something "different" and "interesting". My own philosophy about it is a "different" or "interesting" appearance are good qualities in a sofa or a dress, not so much in a dog. In a dog, I want the known, the tried, the true, the tested. 

I always hestitate to say this on a doodle forum, because reds are so popular in doodles, but red Poodles have shallowest gene pool of all; ALL red Poodles in the U.S. come from one of only two lines. And there is great controversy among Poodle people about the temperaments of the reds. There are people who will tell you that they are the least predictable, and that some of the reds can be downright nasty. I can only say I have known a couple who helped me decide against looking for a red puppy, lol. 

[Stacy]

That really confirms a lot of what I've read, and the direction I'm going in the future, though it may be a long time in the future. Part of me is always in a rush for another puppy, but the smart part of me knows that two is enough. 

I was talking to my work people about Poodles the other day. Everyone knows that dogs are my thing. And someone was saying that they liked doodles but didn't like Poodles and yada yada. I showed them Jasper's picture. Their response? "That's a Poodle?" 100% well bred, perfect Poodle - without the stupid haircut. The haircut changes everything! Maybe we shouldn't tell everyone that they're amazing and that you don't have to cut their hair so they look weird. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

LOL, I am going to have to photocopy Jasper's pedigree and carry it around with me, because I've had several people question me on his breed. I do think more poeple would be attracted to the breed if they saw more of them with "natural" haircuts.

The question I have is why, out of all the breeds with furnishings, are Poodles the only breed whose furnishings get completely shaved off. Think about it. Old English Sheepdogs, Schnauzers, Portugese Water Dogs (who do get some of their body parts shaved in very weird haircuts for show), German Wirehaired Pointers, Havanese, Wheaten Terriers, Otterhounds,...I could go on and on. There is not a another breed with furnishings that doesn't get to keep them. Why don't Poodles? I can't find any explanation for this. 

[Stacy]

I have no idea either. I suppose they have less drippy faces after getting a drink, but surely that isn't it. It's just so unflattering. Every once in a while I see one in a show groom and I think it looks elegant. But for the most part I would rather see them dyed to look like a zebra. (I know, but it's so fun!)

I also really hate the look of the shaved feet. Now they're calling this the second wettest October in Kansas *ever* and suddenly I know why they shave their feet. I'm still not going to do it, but I do see the convenience factor. But I still don't know why they would shave their sweet furry little faces.

[J and Riley (and Luna)]

Ugh, the dripping.  I haven't had a dog with furnishings in about 10 years and I forgot how bad it is!  Riley doesn't even have much of a beard yet. It's awful lol.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

But all of the other breeds with furnishings still get to keep theirs, so that can't be it. 

Breed info for some of them (Bouviers, Briards, Bearded Collies, etc) always include something they call "Shaggy Dog Syndrome" and part of that is the drippy beard, lol. 

[Stacy]

Maybe it came from when they were hunting and all the burrs ended up in their beards? But there are other hunting dogs with furnishings too. I have no idea. 

I don't really think the girls are even that drippy. They are neat drinkers. Now when Katie used to swim in the water bowl that was a mess!