Labradoodle & Goldendoodle Forum
What REAL European Moyen Poodles look like
A dear friend and my go-to person for everything Poodle posted this in our FB Poodle group. I hope the video link works.
Here are her comments on the videos:
Just wanted to share videos I saw recently of this lovely Moyen Poodle in Slovakia. He is 39cm which equals around 15.4"
Great dog, I'd love to have one like him (look at his cute attitude!) but I also want people to see what size real European Moyens actually are. In type, temperament, and health issues, Moyens are the same variety as our US Miniatures.
Moyen seems to be the new breeding buzz word and people are using it for all manner of dogs that they are churning out. Two days ago, I saw someone offering a Toy stud for use as a "moyen" breeding dog and I saw another breeder advertising a litter of regular Standards as moyens.
Buyer beware.
Me again.
"Moyen" Poodles are NOT created by breeding a Standard Poodle with a Miniature or Toy Poodle.
However, this is what you are getting with most American bred "Moyen" Poodles, including those used by doodle breeders.
It's important to be aware that the temperaments and genetics of Standard Poodles are different from those of Miniatures, and both are different from those of Toys. There are genetic diseases that run in Standards but not in the smaller size Poodles, and vice versa. When you mix size lines, you create lines that can potentially have ALL of the genetic diseases that all three size Poodles can carry.
It is a very dangerous and foolish thing to do.
Before buying a doodle puppy who has a "Moyen" parent, I would ask to see the pedigree. AKC registrations include the dog's size classification (Standard, Miniature, Toy abbreviated as S, M or T) and it will be easy to know if this "Moyen" is indeed the product of the breeding of two different size Poodles.
If that is the case, and you still want to buy the puppy, you need to check the health clearances very carefully for all of the genetic diseases known to run in both sizes.
https://www.facebook.com/petra.vyhlidkova.5/videos/pcb.222704180397...
https://www.facebook.com/petra.vyhlidkova.5/videos/pcb.222704180397...
And here's a photo:
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Stacy on
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I think they're gorgeous, and a very nice size, though I'm still drawn to the standards.
Is it overly simplistic to think that if we wanted Moyen Poodles in this country that we would just import some really nice specimens from a country that has already established moyens and started a breeding program here? And that if done correctly AKC would then begin a foundation program for moyens as well? I'm sure that's simplifying things a great deal, but I'm surprised no one has done it already.
I know that importing dogs is a thing that is done. Katie's "breeder" is so proud of her European imported Golden Retrievers (I'm sure imported because no reputable Golden Retriever breeder would ever let her get her hands on one of their dogs!) So I'm not sure what is preventing Moyen Poodles from being here. Or maybe they are, and I'm just unaware of what is going on.
There is a part of me that would really like to be involved in that world, but I feel like it would take 1000 years before I knew enough to be able to do it well, and if I was going to do it I would want to be the best. I love learning about it though!
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Permalink Reply by Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle on
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I think that's exactly how a Moyen classification should be started in this country, and I think you are also correct that at some point, the new breed would be accepted to AKC's Foundation Stock Service, which is those breeds who are currently not recognized by the AKC but are breeding true to an established standard and are awaiting recognition.
I do know that there are some knowledgable and reputable Poodle breeders and fanciers who would support the recognition of a 4th size Poodle in this county, IF it were done right.
I'm always surprised by some of the FSS breeds. Some are so familiar, you're surpsied they are not already recognized breeds, like the Bolognese.
And then we have hope for doodle fanciers who would like a purebred, lol! The Pudelpointer is currently in FSS!!!
https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/pudelpointer/ -
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I am just gobsmacked that an acknowledged poodle mix has been accepted by AKC into the Foundation Stock Service! You're right, maybe one day doodles will be a "real breed." Though, aren't they supposed to breed true for that? We have so many different types of doodle that I think we're a long way from that. However, I am going to walk around saying Pudelpointer in a silly voice all day, so thanks for that.
It will be interesting to watch and see what if anything happens with real Moyen Poodles. I love how someone takes something like the term Moyen and decides it's desirable and slaps that name on everything. Then they can charge more. I'm starting to understand the frustration of the breeders who are trying so hard to do things the right way. I once asked a friend who bred Australian Shepherds about mini Aussies, and I got quite the lecture about how that was not a thing.
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Doodles will never be a "real" breed unless they start over from scratch with proper registration and record keeping. You have to be able to trace every dog in the lines. Doodle breeders are all over the place with the breeds, lines, & sizes they have used, and no accurate records of pedigrees. It's too bad they didn;t do it the way the Pudelpointer people obviously did, with a closed stud book.
It typically takes 75 years of controlled breeding for a new breed to breed true, and that is mandatory for consider into FSS, at the very least.
But the Pudelpointer would be a nice substitute for those who like the look and nature of the F1s, and who would like a verifiable pedigree, lol.
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Oh and for those who don;t know (and it seems many don't), "Moyen" is just the French word for "medium".
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Oh, and Jasper is already a bit taller than this gorgeous Moyen, much to my delight! It's hard for me to get an accurate measurement without a second person to help, but best attempt had him just a smidgen under 16"...about 15.8". And he's only 9.5 months old, so he should make 16" or more. I'm told his brother and one of his sisters are already 16" or more. :D
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I'm so glad that Jasper went oversize. I know that's what you were hoping for! I think you grew him with your love. I also saw his picture in the calendar. I'm so glad he snuck his way in there! He's just lovely.
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Thank you. I'm not advertising it, as both the doodle and the Poodle people might have objections. :)
As a disclaimer, Laurie (Fudge & Vern's mom) took that photo and submitted it as a surprise for me. -
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He's beautiful, regardless of the title of the calendar. Maybe next year Adina will have to call it Doodles and Friends.
It did make me think though, I can't think of any silver doodles off the top of my head. Is the silver a recessive gene? So that you wouldn't get a silver doodle even if a silver poodle was the parent? Can two silver Poodles have anything besides silver puppies? Now I'm curious.
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Well, there are no silver Retrievers (despite the rubbish you see on BYB sites about "silver Labs"), but there have been a few silver doodles here. Some of them are faded blacks or "bad blacks", I think. DRC has had a few, we had a gorgeous one some years back and we happend to learn that the sire was a very well bred silver Poodle, (which caused no end of trouble for the Poodle breeder when I let the Poodle community know, lol. Our volunteer pulled the poor doodle an hour before he was to be euthanized in a kill shelter.)
I know we had a discussion about Poodle colors somewhere here. I'll have to do a little research on whether silver is a recessive color or not. I tend to think it might be. -
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Don't beat me, because I'm absolutely kidding, but they could do Weimeraners. Weimeroodles. I bet they would look similar to a labradoodle only maybe silver? I actually love the look of the Weims, but I don't see myself ever having a short haired dog. They make me itch and their hair gets everywhere. But I would consider a longer haired dog that didn't require so much grooming. I was just thinking last night how much I miss the Papillons. Except for their refusal to potty train they really are delightful little dogs. Big dogs in a small package.
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Weimardoodles have been around since before DK started. The founder of IDOG had one. And most of them are brownish or beige, not silver. Google it.
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