Kibble brands and bad breath, gas, loose stool

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

After trying various kibbles and following many of the discussions about kibbles and their ratings, I decided to try Costco's Kirkland. It was rated highly and its cost was extremely reasonable. So, we switched our dogs over. We tried both the lamb and the chicken. Our dogs have all developed gas, one has bad breath, and one continues to have looser stools. We are on our 4th bag so it isn't like we are still transitioning. We used the old Nutro for 10 years thinking it was a good food. We have tried Dick Van Patten's and several others but they haven't been quite right either. Now that Ned is on adult food, we are trying to find one that will work for all three dogs. In desperation, we might put our old guy back on his Nutro Lamb and Rice and keep the other two on the Kirkland or something else, but I am open to suggestions. In this economy and with 3 dogs, cost needs to be factored into our decision.

[Dianne Carter ~ Trinity Doodles]

Hi Nancy ~ I think you will find several options available to you. My food source has actually brought in a few she had not previously stocked because of the price factor ~ people still want what is best, but it is tough out there. Please consider other options over your former formula, there are many issues of which many people never hear of. I know you know this but I do want to reiterate this, usually quality food equals smaller servings ~ when you price this you really cannot look at the price per pound, also you just cannot know what $ it may save in future vet bills. That said, I know many seem to successfully use some of the lower end kibbles that have a decent evaluation ~ in my own head I just cannot wrap it around one very important concept though ~ how can the extreme quality control required in this day in aqe possibly happen at such low cost while profit is still realized? Just a thought I think we should all have in the back of our mind.

First know options about pricing in regards to incentives that may be available, these are not always made widely known because some merchants do not want to deal with having to get credit or reimbursed from the company. Some foods have frequent buyer programs both breeder and owner, it might be something like buy 12 bags and get 1 free, so now you have to figure that into actual cost per bag. Canned is often the same. Other companys offer lots of coupons and some offer plain wrapper bags that they sell for less. I think it is worthy of a visit to a premium food store to at least discuss this with them. Tell them your concerns, they want to hear this from you and only when they know how to best meet their customers demands can they stock their shelves with appropriate choices. There are usually only a handful of warehouses that supply these stores in a given area, so they have many options but if they do not hear you they cannot meet your needs. Also many would be happy to add a product to their order for you even if they do not place it on their shelves. I highly recommend going to a 'small' store where you will get more individualized attention, find what works first and then if need be shop for a better price after you establish what may meet your needs. Sometimes you can even pick some of these up at feed stores for less, here are my warnings there ~ just make sure that they have temperature control where you are buying it and where they are storing it ~ inquire as to the turnover, how often do they order it in and consider whether they may be utilizing any pesticides that could possibly contaminate food.

Now brands. Natura, who make California Natural, Innova, Innova EVO and more have a line called Healthwise ~ last I checked it was more economical than many of the others and has the solid reputation of Natura behind it. If your dog has gas I have heard EVO can add to that so keep that in mind, though I think its price factor will eliminate that one anyways. Diamond does have some products ie. Taste of the Wild is one that many have had good luck with. When you are talking to your food 'consultant' you need to ask questions like who manufactures it for them, they should also be able to tell you which plant. We can use Diamond as an example, they have several plants and the foods at each are very specifically assigned to that location. I have heard that their CA plant has not had issues though I cannot tell you that I have confirmed that.

Enough ramblings, I need to go meet the day ~ I am sure more great advice will follow and I will try and pop in later with a bit more.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Hi Nancy, I would second Dianne's advice not to go back to the Nutro. Believe me, I know how you feel...I used it for 18 years, Jackdoodle had done very well with it, his poops were small & firm, and I participated in the buying program, so there was also a good savings; plus, it was cheaper than the stuff he's on now to begin with. But the methadione thing really scared me, it is a known cancer-causing agent. Plus, I got "inside information" about some major changes in the formula which were also very worrisome. I would say, look at the ingredients on the old Nutro food, and try to find a new formula that matches it. (The info on the Nutro bags is not even accurate right now...at least for the Natural Choice Lamb & Rice, they started putting the new formula in the old bags, they are allowed to do that for six months after the change, but if the old formula worked for you, that's the info that's still on the bags.)
I had a hard time finding something else that JD would eat, and that also agreed with his digestive system.
We ended up with Nature's Variety Prairie, which IS more expensive...I justify it by telling myself I'm saving on vet bills down the road. I know Costco is less expensive on just about everything, because it's a warehouse club, and I don't know what other brands they have there. A lot of people have had good luck with Blue Buffalo from Petsmart. I think sometimes the fancy foods with all the fruits & veggies do give the dogs gas, I have had that problem with some of them. So maybe a simpler formula would work better.
As we've said before, who would ever have thought it would be this hard to just feed your dogs?

[Dianne Carter ~ Trinity Doodles]

Just as an after thought, I do have a friend here on DK who has just gone through some of this. Her doodle boy had been on Blue Buffalo and had serious gas as well as loose stools several times a week. She wrote to me this week and told me she put him on TOW along with digestive enzymes (cannot say enough good about those) on Mon. 1/26 and in less than a week is amazed at the changes. I am certain she would be happy to share information with you, her name is Meredith Foreman.

Please be sure to share along the way both in what works and does not for the next one who comes down the line for that information. Good luck!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

CORRECTION TO MY ABOVE POST! I should have said "menadione", not "methadione"!
Menadione is synthetic vitamin K, and has the following problems:
causes cytotoxicity in liver cells
causes formation of radicals from enzymes of leucocytes, with the consequence of cytotoxic reactions
considerably weakens the immune system
possible mutagenic effects
damages the natural vitamin K cycle
has no effect on coumarin derivatives, which are often present in commercial food due to mold contamination (toxic when ingested)
causes hemolytic anemia and hyperbilirubinemia, not just linked to large doses
disturbs the level of calcium ions (Ca2+) in the body, which is an important factor fibrinolysis
is directly toxic in high doses (vomiting, albuminuria), unlike natural vitamin K
builds up in tissue and has been detected in eggs, meat and milk of animals supplemented with menadione derivatives
causes irritation of skin and mucous membranes
causes allergic reactions and eczema

It is ethoxyquin which is a known cancer-causing agent; this is used in some fish-based dog foods as a preservative.
Too much to remember!

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

Thanks so much for your advice. Diane - whatever we feed our guys we follow the bag directions and they are always the same for their weights so I wouldn't save any money. I won't really go back to Nutro Karen, but my poor 10 year old guy, Simon, has been on Nutro Lamb and Rice his entire life with no gas, no loose stools, no bad breath. Gordie is picky, Ned tries to steal everyone else's food, Simon, the sweetie eats what he is given when he is given it. Sounds like I probably should avoid EVO and Blue Buffalo too, but I will check into the other suggestions and contact Meredith.
Be envious that the weather here is nice enough to go in our RV for the weekend - now picture the confined space of an RV and 3 gassy dogs WITH bad breath too!!!!! Not too appetizing. I will continue to check out any and all suggestions. Why or why did they have to degrade stuff that was good?????

[Marion Carmickle]

Like you, we have tried several dog kibbles in an effort to move our 8 month old Riley from Iams. We finally decided to try Organix. The good news is that she has had no upset stomach, no loose stools, etc and we have almost finished our very slow transition. I don't know what we will use when she is no longer on puppy food, but for now, this has had the least negative effects on her digestive system, it doesn't have wheat, corn, beet pulp or bad preservatives and is rated as a 4 star food on dogfoodanalysis.com. I will see how she does as we move to 75% Organix and 25% of the old Iams but, as far as I can tell, so far, so good. The only problem I have found is that we need to put some sort of "lure" on the kibble to get her started and then she eats it all up. Does anyone have suggestions for "toppings" that are healthy and safe on top of kibble? Thanks, Marion and Riley in Texas

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Marion, I have the pickiest eater alive, and I have had success "topping" his food with scrambled or chopped hard-boiled eggs, a little canned tuna (use the chunk light water packed, it's cheaper than the albacore & has half the mercury), a little canned or broiled salmon or other mild fish, a small amount of finely cut leftover plain cooked chicken or beef, and believe it or not, a few cooked lima beans! Many dogs also like carrots, lightly cooked (rather than raw) helps them to digest them better and makes the nutrients more available.
I have found that it's a mistake to mix these into the kibble; he will take a mouthful from the bowl, spit it on the floor, and then pick through it to find just the "good stuff". Putting it on top of the kibble will usually cause him to continue eating after he's finished the "topping"...like an appetizer, lol.

[Marion Carmickle]

I would like information on digestive enzymes. Where does one find these and is there a brand that is considered to be the best? Marion

[Dianne Carter ~ Trinity Doodles]

Marion ~ we like wholistic pet brand, here is a store locator link http://www.thewholisticpet.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=page.display&am.... You can also find that brand on multiple websites, maybe better priced as well. These serve many benefits aside from just helping sensitive tummies. There are a number of their products we really like and can justify using based on personal results and those of other cases.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

Sadly, there isn't a store near us. But interestingly enough, there is one where we vacation! One of our concerns is to use a food that is commonly found because in the summer when we are gone for weeks at a time, we can't carry enough food for 3 (and sometimes 5) dogs without buying it at some point. This is one of the reasons we aren't getting the Dick Van Patten food.

[20xlhzzaoccks]

I just thought I would share our experience on this discussion since I know Dianne had mentioned it. Steve had been on Blue Buffalo for a long time and was doing ok on it but had frequent diarrhea and never seemed to like it that much. I then switched him to the Blue Buffalo Wilderness which is grain free and higher protein. He liked it better but started having more frequent diarrhea and horrible gas. I switched to the Taste of the Wild Bison and Venison formula and added a digestive enzyme called Prozyme. We have a great specialty pet store called Pookies Bow Wow Bakery that is close by and they are knowlegable about different foods and enzymes. The Taste of the Wild food is comparable in price to Blue Buffalo. It isn't as expensive as the Innova Evo and Origen. Steve loves this food and he is a pretty picky eater. I have been able to go to feeding him twice a day and he always eats the full amount where as before he wouldn't eat the recommended amount he would always leave some in the dish. He has been on the new food and enzymes now for a month and has only had loose stools one time and not even full on diarrhea. Before he was having diarrhea several times a week. I would just say that each dog reacts differently. It is helpful to have people here on doodle kisses that are so knowlegable about food and can tell you what to look for. I would also suggest that if you have a specialty pet store in your area that you talk to someone there that is knows about the different foods and can make reccomendations based on your pets reactions.

[Chloe, Finley & Mama Shelley]

I had the same problem with the Kirkland Food..all 3 of my dogs had horrible, "room clearing" gas..

I have switched to Nurtisource, and love it.. their skin is great, coats are shiny, and NO GAS! Less poop also!