Communicating with Eyes

[Leslie and Halas]

Someone at the dog park yesterday told me that dogs can be very leery of another dog if they can't see that other dog's eyes. In other words, dogs might be suspicious of our doodles if their hair is covering their eyes. I've always heard that dogs take direct eye contact as threatening, so I was surprised to hear this, and I didn't believe it at first (if his hair is in his eyes, Halas can't make direct eye contact). But now I'm not so sure. There are lots of ways to communicate with their eyes besides just direct eye contact, so maybe they communicate with their eyes more than I think. Halas hasn't had any problems at the dog park with other dogs, but his hair isn't completely in his eyes. I've read posts about doodles getting jumped by other dogs out on walks or at dog parks, so I wonder if there's any connection there. Does another dog maybe see a doodle as threatening if the doodle's hair is in his eyes a little bit? In all my time here on DK, I've never seen anything about keeping the eyes well-trimmed so that other dogs can see them, so I'm thinking that it's not really a big issue (beyond just normal grooming and the fact that the dog needs to be able to see). But I wanted to put this out there and see if others have any knowledge or an opinion on the subject. So, do a dog's eyes need to be completely visible in order for that dog to communicate with other dogs?

[Adina P]

Beth Line, director of IDOG, has written an article on this. She believes very strongly that dogs should have their eyes clear for communication...as their communication is VERY subtle. I'll share this post with her in case she'd like to pipe in.

[Leslie and Halas]

Oh, good. I'd like to read that article. When I googled it, I didn't find much, and what I did find didn't necessarily look like it was from professionals. So it would be good to read something from a reliable source. Do you happen to have a link to the article? I looked on IDOG, but I didn't see it.

[Adina P]

I think I lied. I think she was GOING to write an article and may have written a post on another site at some time. But I did message her =)

[F, Calla & Luca]

I don't know about whether the dogs like to see each others eyes or not but I really like to see Luca's eyes. For one thing they are beautiful and I feel we communicate better this way. Also, although this might project too much on the dog, I know how annoying I'd find it to have hair in my eyes!

[Leslie and Halas]

I like to see Halas' eyes, too. When he was a puppy, I resisted, because the longer hair was so cute. But their eyes are even cuter.

[Stella]

Our dog trainer, who is also a behaviourist, said it is very important to keep them groomed around the eyes so that they can see each others. She said that it is important for communication between them that they can see the others eyes, and that if they can't it can lead to misunderstandings and possible fights.

[Leslie and Halas]

I think Halas' eyes are kept pretty clear. The hair may start to get a little long when it gets close to grooming time, but normally, I feel like they are clear. Halas doesn't seem to have any misunderstandings at the dog park, so I think we're ok. But it's something I'll definitely watch for if the hair starts to get long in between groomings.

[Leslie and Halas]

We do the "look at me" too, but I hadn't heard about the 7 seconds. I think we only go 2 or 3 seconds. In fact, when we first started, we were rewarding immediately, so the look wasn't held very long at all. In my above post, I mentioned that I did let his hair grow around his eyes when he was a puppy. So the first few times we did "look at me" it was hard to tell if he was really looking or not.

[IDOGMa]

I love this topic. I would submit to all reading this thread is that there is one critical thing missing ... The perspective of the dog…. Here is a draft of an article I have been writing. Its been mothballed for a while, but worth at least posting for this discussion. Its just a tad off topic, but certainly provides some things that many may have never even thought about. Enjoy.


The eyes have it!

When a puppy is born their brain mass is about 8% of its final size. Their eyes, ears and nose pretty much do not work yet. They have some mobility and they are able to suckle (if the they learn it real quick before the opportunity fades, but that’s a whole other story). Their functions at birth are minimal. Having more functions would require a bigger brain, thus would produce a puppy with a larger head, which would then be problematic during the birthing. The brain is only just large enough to get the puppy started in life.

If you compare breed-to-breed and even wolf to domestic dog they all look almost exactly alike at birth. There is a reason for that, that size, shape, abilities or lack of, works! Nothing more, nothing less. In addition, the similarity has to do with the fact that they are all coming from the same type of environment a mother’s womb. It is when they get out in the world do the variations start to express themselves.

What does this have to do with hair over the eyes?

Puppies’ eyes are closed at birth. They open at around 4 days. They actually start to see around 2 to 3 weeks. There is no hair around or over the eyes (just go look at ANY canine puppy baby pictures). This is so that when the eyes open they can start to register the visual information and develop their brain without obstruction. As their body and brain develops the eyes continue to “do their job” of sending visual signals to the brain. They learn specific things such as, if I see steps, I will either be able to walk up or down them. If I see a dog bearing his teeth, have his hackles up, or is standing directly in front of me, I had better start sending some good signals to avert a fight. If I see a butterfly, I can pounce on it. If I see my food in a dish, I can run over and eat it. There are so many things that the dog sees and learns how to react or not react from that visual information.

There are many types of dogs that tend to grow hair around their eyes and eventually obstruct the dogs’ vision. If you read some of the pure breed standards, they will often mention that a dog breed has this hair over their eyes for various reasons “protect from bad weather”, “protect from the sun”… . Nevertheless, in reality, there is NO dog breed that SHOULD have hair over his or her eyes (gasp, did she really say that???). This is romancing the dog breed and it is a big hunk of marketing to appeal to human desires. It just does not make sense from an evolutionary reason, for an environmental reason or for a health reason.

If you look to the actual working livestock guarding dogs of Italy or any other place where dogs are utilized to guard sheep, these dogs rarely have hair over their eyes. What good would it serve to have a dog that could not even see where he was walking let alone potential predators? In addition, the risk of damage to the eyes by the hair is problematic. Actual working Shepard’s do tend to avoid dogs that have hair over their eyes. They want dogs that can SEE where it is walking and be able to see to do his required job. And they do not want to nor have the time to groom their working dogs.

Healthy puppies have sight; they learn how to respond to their environment utilizing sight. This is now imprinted into their brains. If indeed a dog was best suited to have a mass of hair over their eyes, then why didn’t Mother Nature just put that mass of hair over the eyes to start? Because it does not make sense for the survival of the animal! They have the sight so that they can develop a lot of information to assure that they survive. They need to see potential danger, they need to see food, they need to see the environment; they need to see everything!

When I do consults on dog behavior with rather upset owners, they sometimes tell me about how nice and sweet their dog use to be, and then “one day, all of a sudden, without warning…” the dog starts to be jumpy, reactive, stressed, fearful, etc. I cant count on my hand how many times I was able to say “cut the hair around the dogs eyes” and then call me back later and let me know how things are going. Sure enough, a week later I get “the dog is great, he is happy, he is back to his old self!” This happens a lot. People are even on the verge of rehoming their now “insane” dog because they did not stop and think about this one little easy fix.

Over a year ago, I was flown a doodle that was deemed dangerous by owners and several vets. I was at the airport ready to pick up this monster dog (which the owners required me to sign a waiver saying I wouldn’t sue them if the dog mauled me.) Brought the dog home and just watched him for about an hour. The dog was in distress no doubt, he was growling a bit, he was very cautious with every step, he was sniffing like crazy and his ears were pivoting around like a radar. I could not stand it any longer… I got out the scissors and risked life and limb to cut his hair away from his eyes. Clip, clip, clip and boom – there were some beautiful eyes. I think that there was a bit of a sigh when he looked at me. He was not a monster dog; he was a dog that could not see a darn thing. (He’s fine now, didn’t maul me to death which is pretty a good thing.)

So, even if you do not do your own grooming. Get yourself some scissors and keep those eyes unobstructed - always. Totally unobstructed. It may be cute to have all that fluffy stuff around and over their eyes, but it is not cute from the dogs’ perspective and it is not cute when they start to show reactive behaviors or eye infections. Defy the dog world, stand up for doodledum everywhere and say, “Our dogs shall always have clear vision!”

[Leslie and Halas]

Thanks for posting this! That's great info. Halas' hair isn't falling in his eyes, so I don't think it's obstructing his vision much, but I guess it could be affecting his peripheral vision or his vision of points just above his head. Now that I think of it, he's been a little apprehensive with his flyball jumps lately, so I wonder if his vision isn't as clear as it needs to be. I'd love your opinion on his eye hair length if you have a couple minutes to check out pics on our page.

Do you have info or an opinion on how hair in the eyes might impact another dog's feelings about the long-haired dog? Halas doesn't seem to have a problem in this regard, but who knows.

[LuvMyAbby&Kaela]

LOL! Now if I only could have had you around when 3 yrs ago my then 18 yr old oldest son insisted on this ridiculous hair with side bangs that completely covered up on eye at all times! He would hear no reason and I swear he went a little crazy as a direct result of suddenly having only one operational eye suddenly.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Too bad he didn't have a dog's nose & ears to compensate, LOL!