To Treat or not to Treat

[Phoebe's Mom]

We had a fence installed about two weeks ago and Phoebe is loving the yard with 'unleashed' abandon. The problem is that she will not come when called either to go in OR to try to play fetch. I suppose I never thought I would have to TEACH her to play fetch but, boy, was I wrong. Last night, I threw the ball and she got it and then never gave it back (we play all the time inside but I suppose the large space and distractions have changed the dynamic for her). She got a landscaping stone before coming in and I could not get her to get the leash on--I got within two feet of her and she bolted. I even went so far as to exit the yard (keeping my eye on her, of course) because I knew she would follow me--wrong!!! She stayed and chomped on that stone until I went inside and got her a treat. I made her work for the treat by heeling out of the yard and then waiting a few moments before rewarding her behavior. So, the question is did I do the right thing? Should I just bring treats and keep encouraging her to bring me the ball and then to come when I want to leash her (then fade them out over time) or would I be over-treating her or making it a game to not return the ball unless I had a treat in hand?

[Terri]

I'd think if you pair the treat with a whistle or command and fade the treats over time, you'll be teaching her. We always have kibble or oyster crackers in a little jar by the back door to either take out with us, or to give Cooper when he "comes when called". He used to play those games but now he knows that most of the time he gets a treat when he listens.... I say sometimes because then sometimes he gets a belly rub, a toy, etc. Keeps him on his toes!

Also, you may want to invest in a long lead (I have a 20 ft) that you put on her when she's out. Step on it and reel her in...then treat.

[HANNAH 8/2/07 & HONEY 7/2/08]

I have used a long tie out lead/leash about 30 to 50 ft. you can buy them at walmart, they are the cloth type, not the wire. Let her go on the lead...when she gets to the end of it..call her back..if she comes back..treat..if not..go get her and start again...try this a few times and than give her a play break...than try calling her without the leash..if she comes ...treat..if not put her on the leash again and keep practing till she gets the recall. I would use the treats, and just fade them out or not as often, sometimes just use a "Good Girl"...

[Audrey Goldman]

I am the last person to give advice, but here is what I was taught. I have two balls or two throw toys. I keep one and throw the other. The second one is not thrown until the first is brought back. It actually works. I have also used the clicker and a treat to reinforce bringing back of the first throw toy. Audrey in Studio City

[Phoebe's Mom]

These are great ideas which I will start trying this afternoon. I think I need to change my approach and stop assuming that Phoebe knows how to retrieve and return to me and start getting her attention/interest in doing so. Back to the drawing board...

[jamiegirl]

We are having a similar situtation with our girl. She used to play fetch quite well until about 2 weeks ago. She's decided that chewing on the ball was a better deal than getting the treat or continuing to play fetch with us. We have tried saying "uh-oh" when she doesn't give it back and then we walk away but she just keeps on chewing. (Sigh) Just when we think we were doing something right. Like you've said, "back to the drawing board"

[Adina P]

stop assuming that Phoebe knows how to retrieve and return to me

I think you've hit the nail on the head! We assume dogs with retrieving backgrounds will automatically complete all the necessary steps of a retrieve: chase, pick up, hold, return to owner, drop item and prepare to repeat. Some dogs do this perfectly innately for fun ...but even then that same dog may not automatically be willing to retrieve a set of keys or your cell phone or other items. A solid retrieve must be taught for most dogs.

I would think of the parts of the retrieve separately and work on those separately then combine them together into a full behavior.

As to the coming when called from outdoors, I agree with keeping a long leash on her (supervised) so that you can make her come if you call her and she decides she'd rather do something else.

As far as treats go... I think the most important part of weaning off of treats is weaning off the SIGHT of treats as a signal. If the first 2-3 times you say "Phoebe COME!" as you dangle a bag of cheese in plain view...you've gotta quit the dangling of the bag ASAP and only give her cheese as a reward rather than show it to her as a bribe. Because then the sight of the bag becomes the signal, NOT your command and when you don't have a treat for her to see she won't take you seriously.

Also if you use treats you can't ever get rid of them entirely...you just make them happen now and then rather than 100% of the time. Maybe every 3rd time or 4th time ... vary it up so she doesn't ever know for sure, but if you make it too infrequent she'll stop gambling for the chance to win a treat.

Now on the other hand...I personally have NO problem with occasional bribery provided I don't use my command word at the same time. When I know Rosco is unlikely to want to come in...I just show him his treat jar and he comes running...I do NOT say "Rosco COME" as I don't train basics with treats and I don't want to corrupt what he does willingly (without treats) the rest of the time.

I would start by leashing her up (with a 20 footer) and letting her do her thing while you walk around outside, nearby, pretending to ignore her. Then randomly...when you're near the leash...say "Phoebe, Come!" and within 3 seconds if she doesn't respond you reel her in with the leash praising her the whole time. When she arrives in front of you, praise her and pull a piece of yummy treat out of your pocket and reward her. Then release her to go play some more and a few minutes later...repeat. Do this 5-6 times and then take the leash and lead her back indoors. Don't call her to come in yet.

Repeat later in the day and even try it while you stand in the doorway. If she comes to you when you stand in the doorway...GREAT! Release her to go back outside, and then call her a few more times outside and then finally lead her back in by the leash.

[Phoebe's Mom]

Fabulous! Thanks for that well-written description of exactly what I should be doing--I so appreciate it. I wish I had had a video camera going to post today so that you could have seen me trying to 'catch' my dripping wet doodle while she ignored my handful of treats as she chomped on grass/weeds/flowers. I am getting the long lead tomorrow and let the training begin!

[Sessa]

Excellent and clear advice from Adina, as always!

The long lead is so important for really getting the "come" command down pat.
It also is a bridge to learning commands that are meant to be used while "off leash."

Just wanted to add---I've always had to properly TEACH the fetch game...no dog, retriever or not, EVER comes hard-wired to the proper RULES of the game...in a nutshell, it has to be made clear that the toy is only activated by YOU, when they don't bring it back, the game ends. simple as that, you walk away and ignore. They quickly realize that interacting WITH you AND the toy is what activates the game--plus, it establishes that you call the shots (as always) and the game is not begun or ended by them.

GOOD LUCK WITH EVERYTHING---soon enough you'll be posting about how your doodle keeps bringing you the ball and dropping it in your lap...or at your feet...or in your bed (especially when its wet!)...or on the couch while your sleeping...or on the coffee table...you get the idea!! LOL!! DON'T FORGET TO HAVE FUN!!

[Kyoko]

I use her kibbles to practice her Recalls. I could be watching TV, on the computer, doing my paperwork, whatever, but I will have some kibbles handy, and just call her every now and then. And when she turns around to look at me, or come to me, I just give her several kibbles immediately. I also take some kibbles when I walk her. I just randomly call her name every so often, and if she looks back/ give eye contact, I give her the kibbles.
She used to be really good at recall, when we learned at Puppy K, but now she becoming more independent, she is needing refresher course!

[Phoebe's Mom]

That is a great idea--so simple but one I never thought to do. Thanks. I should practice recalls more frequently throughout the day. Believe me, I know what you mean about a refresher course as Phoebe has definitely entered the teenager years...the backtalk==or should i say 'barktalk'== is getting annoying !

[Kyoko]

I know. And she is much bigger! and much more vocal, too!

[Tamara & Giada]

You do need to train fetching, and treats work well. This is what we did and it only took a couple days........

Take a tennis ball cut a slit in it and fill with favorite treat. Make sure she sees you put it in there.......... throw the ball. When she realizes she will only get the treat when you have it, she start to bring it to you. Continue for a while, then eventually ween her off the treat.