Myth vs. Reality

[Nancy Sunderland]

I recently heard that unless both mama and dada doodle are choloclate, that a puppy born chocolate, will eventually beocme a "cafe au lait". Is this true? (My doodle puppy had a cream mom and chocolate dad.)

[Adina P]

They don't both have to be chocolate. But if they have a lot of liver/rose nosed dogs behind them then chances are the chocolate will fade. Chocolates need to have a lot of black noses behind them to stay dark. But it just comes down to the gene combination the individual dog has. Chocolates can't have JUST black nosed dogs in their lineage as chocolate requires the liver nose pigment...you'll never see a chocolate with a black nose. But if the majority of dogs in a line were liver nosed...then a choc will likely fade.

[Audrey Goldman]

Archie arrived at 8 weeks a deep chocolate, as I requested. Dam was a medium silver ALD and sire was a chocolate standard ADL. Now, at 14 months, Archie is latte with a silver tail. His nose was always a deep rose color and has not changed. His ears are more chocolate/auburn. He continues to lighten but he is beautiful. In addition to a color change, Archie is much bigger and taller than I was led to believe. Being a first time dog owner, I have come to understand only a purebred dog will have reliable traits.

[Adina P]

It's that silver dad and his heritage... to have strong REDS that stay you have to have pretty much just reds (black noses) and blacks in a line. Since chocolates are already a bit of a dilute color (chocolates can't come from all black lines because they have to have that pale nose in there somewhere that can even make a chocolate). My explanation is not quite as good as it could be...hopefully a good breeder with chocolate knowledge can share more.

[Noble Vestal Labradoodles]

Untrue. Two black dogs that carry chocolate can produce a litter with chocolate puppies.

You could have a black dog who has black parents for several generation who still carries chocolate.

In fact a black dog that carries brown bred to another black dog that carries brown statistically will produce:
1 black puppy that only carries black
1 brown puppy that only carries brown
2 black puppies that carry brown

you can also have blacks that carry brown and yellow and produce a rainbow of color in the litter and you can have blacks that only produce blacks.

[Adina P]

THANK YOU Kendra :) I knew I was off and glad I asked you to pop in.

I think I was stuck on the 'dominance' of black and forgot that they still can CARRY for chocolate or yellow.

[Noble Vestal Labradoodles]

this is the stuff no one ever thinks about only breeders! I love this stuff and it is what makes each program really neat.

It amazes me however that there are amateur breeders out there that dont know this stuff and dont take the time to ever learn it when they know the research is there.

There was once a breeder who told me she didnt understand why she kept getting black puppies, I asked what color the parents were and told her that the yellow brown combo for her would always produce blacks and she thought I was crazy...

Fun stuff I think!

[Nancy Sunderland]

I did some digging and found out that Sable's dad's parents are BOTH dark chocolate. (I'm still waiting to hear back from her mama's breeder. Not same topic, but I want a deep, dark red doodle for my next one! I've already started a savings fund!)

[Noble Vestal Labradoodles]

send me your dog's pedigree and I will break it down for you. I have a huge data base on these dogs and might be able to give you some color history in a matter of a few minutes.

[Noble Vestal Labradoodles]

Nancy,

I am going to stick to the colors brown, yellow & black because honestly those are really they only true colors recognized. You will understand as you read.

It is very common for brown dogs who are from a brown and yellow parents to fade to some degree.

The yellow gene is a dilution gene
The black gene will strengthen color

It is like a crayon, if you color something green then use a white crayon and color over it the color fades. If you color black then color over it with green it is darker.

In the poodle world breeder either breed like colors or mix yellow and black or brown and black. Most breeds do not recognize dogs with liver colored noses because they see it as a weakness in the dog's color aka dilution gene. This is how they keep colors true but it is still difficult for them to do with great success because much of what is produced has to be done on customer demand and placability of the puppies. Most breeders have a hard time placing black puppies because they photograph differently and because of stereo types. Therefore breeders shy away from using black dogs in their program and loose much of their color. This is why reds aka yellows and chocolates aka browns fade.

I and a few other breeders have sought out black dogs for our programs to help strengthen color.

To answer your question. Yes your dog will likely fade, some retain their color but most fade from this type of pairing.