Feeding RAW

[Lynne Fowler-Oodles of Doodles]

Raw feeding our doodles is advocated by many people. There are some pros and cons in this...let's discuss it.

[Karen, Buford and Fionna]

Thanks Karen :-) I've been cooking for my doodles but I like the idea of adding in some raw bones for their teeth :-) The idea of feeding raw is intriguing...

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

(this has been reposted from a previous discussion here)
For my part, my previous dogs lived long healthy lives with no illness involved, on plain old commercial diets. After the recent issues with the food companies, I am researching better ways. In addition to the "fanaticism" I see on "raw-feeding" discussions, there is also a lot of information that doesn't make any scientific sense whatsoever....stuff about not combining carbohydrates & protein that was debunked years ago after the "Fit For Life" craze, etc. I am NOT basing my information on what the vets say, I am basing it on my own education in biology and physiology. Our dogs may be descended from wolves, however, there are still differences. Wolves have much larger teeth and much stronger jaws. Wolves also have shorter digestive tracts than dogs do. Canis are classified as omnivores, not strictly carnivores, and they are of course limited to what is available. Our dogs are not living in the wild, never lived in the wild, nor did their parents, grandparents, great-great grandparents, etc. for hundreds of years before them. (And I assure you that every single dog I personally know will be vomitting, if not worse, after eating a dead rodent.)To compare them to wolves is the same as comparing yourself to Neanderthal Man. We no longer eat as primitive man did, why should our dogs? Wolves and wild dogs DO get sick and do die of salmonella, obstructions and other digestive problems, etc., and they are certainly at risk for bacterial infections.Here is one of many fact-based articles by Ann Martin on the subject of bacteria:

Bacteria
Pets are just as susceptible to the bacteria and parasites in raw meat as humans arc. Salmonella, E. coli, campylobacter and trichinosis can cause severe illness and death. The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has found that a high percentage of meat and poultry contains at least one strain of bacteria. Hence, the agency advises that you thoroughly cook meat and poultry. Toxoplasma, a parasite found in warm-blooded animals, can also be transmitted from raw or undercooked meat. David T. Roen, DVM, writes, "A veterinary neurologist told me the other day that they have seen au increase in seizure disorders in dogs and cats caused by toxoplasmosis, especially in areas where raw meat diets are trendy."

When I asked Geoff Stein, DVM, he wrote: "The problem with these 'natural' diets is the misguided assumption that 'natural' is better. It's 'natural' for wolves to die of salmonella once in awhile." He added that wolves would probably be healthier if they ate cooked meat.

[Ellen]

Has anybody using raw food diets experienced impacted stool? I started a trial raw food diet for Riley last week and really noticed some significant changes in about 2 days -- Significantly fewer eye crusties, firmer stool, less smelly stool, and lesser amounts of stool excretion. Everything was fine until this weekend. Riley threw up twice on Sat. and Sunday -- ordinarily he throws up every once every month, but never twice in a row. And on Sunday, he threw up a large amount of bile. He also lost any appetite to eat anything on Sunday morning, even his die-hard favorite, never-fail Kobe beef treats. Because Riley is such a food hound, I knew that something was wrong. I took him to the 24-hour clinic, where they took a couple of x-rays. It turned out that his intestines were full of backed-up stool that wasn't coming out. Riley spent the day at the clinic so that they could observe him while waiting for all of the stool to be excreted and take some additional x-rays and tests to make sure that there was nothing else wrong. It took the entire day (and $600+ in fees) before Riley excreted all of the stool in his intestines, and luckily he was back to his normal self after that point.

I'm just curious to see if others have experienced similar issues. For now, I've decided to put Riley back on his Innova Adult kibble pending further discussions with my vet about raw feeding.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I know there are a few people here who do feed raw, but not many. The "wolf analogies" are just not really applicable to most modern dogs, and it is not true that their digestive systems are the same. If Riley got a lot of bone, that could be the cause of the problem, and I think it's wise to discuss it with your vet. Neither my regular vet nor Jackdoodle's specialist are in favor of raw diets, although they do support adding homecooked foods. it is also not true that the nutrients are lost through cooking...some are, yes, but in many cases, nutrients are MORE available after cooking. Adina & I are trying to find out exactly how cooking affects the protein content of foods in quantitative terms...probably the main concern, since protein is the most important nutrient for our dogs.
For now, I can tell you that humans would die without the proper amounts and combinations of amino acids, we eat cooked protein foods, and most of us obtain more than enough aminos and proteins.

[Janie]

Karen,does'nt it have something to do with the enzymes? Cooking the food changes the enzymes....is what they claim.

[Adina P]

We don't digest food using the enzymes IN food. We digest food using the enzymes produced by our pancreas and salivary glands. At least in humans. Our stomach acid is so powerful that it denatures any enzymes we might 'eat' as part of food. I'm assuming doggy stomachs are at least as powerful. So we don't NEED to eat enzymes...our bodies make those enzymes and they aren't nutrients (vitamins, minerals, carbs, protein, fat).

[Adina P]

Well that's the thing...cooking DOES denature the protein. But so does stomach acid. And there's not much evidence to prove that dogs OR humans need the enzymes found in food.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I have been researching this, using tables which compare the nutrients in various foods. Where I have been able to find information on the protein content of a particular food both raw and cooked, there is a loss of about 20% protein. Since the nutrition analysis of dog foods is based on the "finished product", it really doesn't matter what the difference is in the piece of meat before & after it's cooked. It is complete protein with all the aminos.
Another very interesting bit of info I came across in an article warning humans about parasites & bacteria in raw or undercooked food: People who eat raw meat "delicacies" like steak tartare are advised to eat them at restaurants that serve only grass- fed beef. Supposedly, grain-fed beef contains parasites that have adapted to living in acidic conditions, and are not killed by stomach acid. From the article:
"The key here is to order tartare only from a reputable establishment. If you're going to eat it raw, you're going to want a very fresh, certified cut of meat and you're going to want it prepared in a hygienic environment. Some chefs put an emphasis on the use of grass-fed livestock, as the bacteria in grain-fed animals become acclimatized to an acidic environment, preparing them for survival in the human gut. Also, freezing a cut of beef for 14 days should wipe out any parasitic risks."
So here is another area where the fanatical raw sites may be misleading...the claim that the dog's stomach acid kills all the bacteria & parasites.
Adina, wasn't there a breeder who had a whole litter of puppies die from bacteria in raw food?

[Adina P]

I don't recall :-/

[Janie]

Even if you could guarantee me it was perfectly safe I could not stand the mess of raw feeding....but I might have to start homecooking.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I know that the raw feeding websites say this about mixing foods, and a lot of their info doesn't make sense to me from a physiological standpoint, but I don't know enough about canine physiology to be able to figure it out. Fresh & cooked food combined should not be a problem, the cooking really shouldn't affect digestion. The kibble is a different story. I think it all depends on the proportions of protein to carbohydrate & fat. Kibble has carbs in it, the raw foods I think are all protein. The dairy products also can be hard on their digestion. But I know Lynne feeds a mixture of homecooked & fresh foods without a problem. She gives kibble in the a.m., which is left out all day for free-feeding, and then feeds her homecooked meals at night. Maybe try giving the kibble by itself for one feeding, and then the fresh foods by themselves at another.
Lately I have been hearing of a lot of doodles having problems with undigested food & throwing up. I tried to switch JD over to fresh, homecooked foods, and had to go back to just kibble with some cooked fish or eggs added, because he was throwing everything up, undigested. I have heard this from people who are feeding strictly raw too lately. I wonder if it has something to do with less exercise during the winter months...exercise does definitely stimulate the digestive system.
Please let us know how things go. Maybe between us, we can figure out a pattern.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I know that Lynne says that feeding home-cooked foods has helped with tear stained around the eyes. I don't think it's raw foods so much as just adding fresh foods, whether they are cooked or raw. But I can't imagine what the physiological reason for that would be...maybe that there is less mucus production with less of the processed kibble.