Correction vs Reward Training

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

We recently completed the Petco puppy obedience class which is a treat based program. Guinness did well and enjoyed going. I have to choose now on what approach to take for his next level of training. I don't think I want to continue with a treat based training class because I an now seeing that he knows when I do (and don"t) have treats, and will behave accordingly. This especially true of "come", which he only does consistently if he knows I have treats. I talked with a trainer today who has 24 years experience, and made a great deal of sense. The question I have is that her program is very correction oriented, and the dog uses a choke collar. She says this approach generates very predictable compliance which is what I'm shooting for. I guess I'm just worried about going to a fully correction based training method. I have a wonderful puppy who is really well behaved the vast majority of the time. Thoughts???

[Chris & Boys]

I have been using a choke collar for two weeks and have had better results in that two weeks than I have in treat training for 4 months. Remember, when you are walking and they are pulling on the leash, their regular collar is applying constant pressure on their necks. A choke collar puts momentary pressure and releases. I think it much safer. A prong collar on the other hand, I have a bit of a problem with. I am thrilled with the improvement my dog has made with the training we have done this month!

[Adina P]

Chris is using the choke chain correctly (I know what she's doing so I can say that). But just putting on a choke chain and going for a walk is NOT gonna work and would be just as damaging to the throat as a flat collar because dogs WILL pull on choke chains too if you don't know how to use it. So just tossing this out for the public...
MERELY USING A CHOKE CHAIN is not the same as good training :)

[HANNAH 8/2/07 & HONEY 7/2/08]

Choke collars are helpful for people who can't communicate authority with their voice, or for dogs that are easily distracted. The dog will view the collar as a signal that he's working and should give his attention to you.
I guess I need to ask you what is the difference of the dependency of the choke collar for corrections vs. giving a treat and getting the same response are? You say you are getting what you want when he knows there is a treat, he will do the same thing if he knows he is getting a correction with a choke collar. So you will be relying on the response from a collar instead of the treat. I'm not against either way of training, but I think they should both go hand in hand, and your trainers at petco should have also trained you to give treats sparingly. If you really want your dog to come to you, you need to teach him a great recall. If I hold my hand up to my face..give the watch me command and than call my dogs to me, they don't know if they are getting a treat or a "Good Girl"...7 out of 10xs its a good girl, but they can't count, and they anticipate the treat, so they are going to come if they want the treat that might be there... either way I got the response I wanted. I have used a flat collar to this day to train Hannah with treats, the same as you would a choker. I just feel if he is well behaved, you shouldn't need a choker for one problem.

[Lynne B]

I strongly disagree with the use of a choke collar or any training method that uses force or causes discomfort. That is the way dog's were trained 40 years ago and while it works for some dogs, it can also cause a fearful or insecure dog to become aggressive. The bottom line is, do you want your dog to obey out of fear of pain, or obey out of love and joy? A choke collar does cause pain, try putting one on yourself and have someone yank it as you would with your dog. It works because it hurts.. a dog will do what you want when you cause discomfort, will it 'always' do what you want me to do, or only when it senses that discomfort will follow disobedience?

Your problem with treat based training only working when the dog thinks you have a treat is a very simple one to fix. You need to learn to fade the reward. Use a simple behavior like sit, give the treat for obeying the command every time- try doing it 5 times, then try it 5 more times, but withhold the treat for one time. Next session only give the treat for 3 out of the 5 commands, but make the dog think you have the treat, you can actually hold one and not give it to the dog. It won't take long before the dog will perform dozens of times without the treat because it still anticipates one. Even when the behavior is perfect, always give the treat occasionally - although it may only be one out of 50 times.

You can verify that treat based training work by going to a casino, watch people play slot machines, they continue putting money in expecting a 'treat' (a monetary reward) as long as the slot machine gives the "treat" occasionally, the person stays at the machine, however when at some point the person senses that there will no longer be a reward (a payout) they move to another machine or leave the casino. That behavior is identical to treat based training of a dog- as long as you anticipate the reward you will repeat the activity in expectation.

I have a friend who is an animal behaviorist, she has worked with dolphins, apes, dogs, and even giraffes. I asked her once if she ever resorted to any 'correction based' training and her response was:

"if you use correction based training with a dolphin, you will be taken for the last swim of your life, the dolphin will grab you from the pool deck and take you to the bottom of the pool and hold you there until you are no longer a threat"

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Are you saying that moving to this type of training approach would negatively impact my relationship with our puppy...loss of trust and fear? The trainer I talked with felt that it follows the way they are taught by their moms which is more a quick correction for bad behavior versus a reward. Her feeling is that it is a more natural way for them to learn and generates clarity and respect. I'm thinking you would disagree with that. I must admit, I'm very confused right now. I get what you're saying about not giving a treat every time he follows the training command, and I actually do that now. The problem is when we're in a situation where we aren't formally working, and he knows I don't have treats, he often will not listen. This is new as he is getting older and becoming much for independent. Some of the things that used to work well, don't know. For example, turning my back on him if he jumped always got a sit response before, because he wanted to please me. Now that he's older, that's less important to him and no longer works with any degree of consistency.

[Lynne B]

I can't say for sure it would negatively impact your relationship, it depends on your dog, but my behaviorist friend told me about a dog that she spent months working with. The owner had hired a 'correction based' trainer who used a choke collar. The owner was told to 'pop' the leash when walking with the dog and the dog barked or growled at another dog. The dog was barking at other dogs because it was afraid, it was going through a fear phase, the discomfort the owner caused gave the dog a real reason to be afraid and the dog turned into a fear-aggressive biter.

I had another friend who used 'dominance' based training with her pups, she is an Akita breeder. She had to take one of her adult males to the vet, the vet asked her to lay the dog on his side, when she did the dog viciously attacked her requiring stitches. She immediately realized what had gone wrong- she had done the 'alpha roll' thing with the dog when he was a puppy and now the 90 pound adult male decided he didn't want to get forcefully rolled on his back..she became an instant advocate of reward based training

Your dog is just getting older and more clever, you need to outsmart him. Keep a treat in your pocket at all times, the dog will figure that out but won't ever know when it will receive it- or switch treats, I had to do that with Beck, he would do a perfect recall for a 'charlie bear' at 4 months, but at 8 months I had to switch to dried liver...why? Probably because what he was exploring when I called him was more important to him than the reward that I was offering. When he realized I now had super-duper treats his recall (on and off leash) became 100% reliable. Try to find an APDT or CPDT trainer- you won't go wrong that way.

Here's a good article that does a better job than I do explaining the dangers of 'dominance, or correction' based training:
http://askdryin.com/blog/2009/05/17/experts-say-dominance-based-dog...

[Adina P]

You are painting all non-treat/positive training with the same brush. This is simply not accurate. Rolling a dog has nothing to do with obedience training. Popping a collar for barking without obedience training is simply bad advice...not an example of all correction training. There is a lot of crap out there...I've watched a trainer teach a class using a choke chain method and cringed. The dogs weren't taught A THING. They were just walked in circles or squares and yanked every few feet with no logic behind it. There was no praise...no clue given the dog when they were correct. Then told to sit and yanked...the dogs had NO clue what any of their commands meant. It was just plain STUPID.

But THAT is a BAD Bad Bad example of training...not a reason to say that all corrections are harmful.

I'm FINE with clicker training and well done positive treat training...I know some who have done VERY well and we have a clicker training group on this site.

But I stronly disagree with the broad strokes of negative light that all correction training is being painted.

[Adina P]

Rosco and I GREW in mutual trust and respect and bonded a ton as a result of the training I did with him that did involve a choke chain. His trust in me GREW. And we spent a LOT of time in training for months on end.... Our relationship got better in every way.

So no a choke chain does not equal evil...it is all in the training method. Abused dogs don't obey 'better'... Trained dogs do.

This can happen with GOOD treat based training too.

I did want to address that I don't think how the mom dog disciplines the pup has anything to do with the question. A momma dog is discplining babies...she's not teaching them to obey commands like SIT, DOWN, STAY, COME, HEEL. So... just make your choice based on what looks both fair and effective .. ask more questions of this trainer. what is her track record? What can students be expected to accomplish by the end of class? and interview some NON PetCo/PetSmart trainers who use treats and ask the same questions.

Go with what is most convincing TO YOU. Because if you are not SOLD on the idea then you are less likely to follow through and give it your all.

No matter what method/trainer you choose...achieving solid obedience takes a considerable effort.

[Adina P]

That sounds like an awesome instructor! ...we need to clone her :)

[Kyoko]

Charlie's trainer is positive reinforcement only type. Her approach is to teach us human and the dogs to do it in a right way, so that there are no need for correction. I was puzzled at first, thinking that " Well, then how do I fix the behavior?" For example, Charlie pulled her leash. How do I correct her and this behavior? What she taught us was to teach Charlie how to walk on a loose leash. It took awhile but now, she can pretty much walk on a loose leash unless she have to poop and want to go to the certain place to do it, or she is absolutely distracted by something. Even with that, I just stop in place and say " Excuse me. Walk with me please?" and she will come sit by my side.

I really like her approach and am going to stay with this trainer. I think the bottom line is what you feel most comfortable and feel most effective with your dog...

Charlie resource guard toys against other dogs and we are going to work on this. I am interested to see her approach on this behavior..... Because only thing I can think of is correction......

[Adina P]

Even with good correction training the goal is still to teach the dog what you want to do. For example, you would still teach the dog to heel, not just correct pulling. You would also teach the dog to sit and to stay...not just correct for jumping or whatever. Not disagreeing with positive training at all...just clarifying that training with corrections is far more, when done right, than merely correcting unwanted behavior. There is definitely teaching and instruction involved in 'alternate behavior.' The corrections then are for when the dog does NOT do what its been told to do when it knows exactly how to do it. I never taught "no pulling" I taught "heel" and with the teaching of heel I GOT no pulling.

[Kyoko]

Dog obedience sounds a lot like child rearing! LOL!
I wish I have known all of these dog obedience stuff when my kids were little! :-)