Correction vs Reward Training

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

We recently completed the Petco puppy obedience class which is a treat based program. Guinness did well and enjoyed going. I have to choose now on what approach to take for his next level of training. I don't think I want to continue with a treat based training class because I an now seeing that he knows when I do (and don"t) have treats, and will behave accordingly. This especially true of "come", which he only does consistently if he knows I have treats. I talked with a trainer today who has 24 years experience, and made a great deal of sense. The question I have is that her program is very correction oriented, and the dog uses a choke collar. She says this approach generates very predictable compliance which is what I'm shooting for. I guess I'm just worried about going to a fully correction based training method. I have a wonderful puppy who is really well behaved the vast majority of the time. Thoughts???

[Adina P]

I don't have time right now to say all that I want...but just real quick:

First, good correction training does not mean NO rewarding the dog in any way. It just may be a different form, more subtle, etc...but there should always be a clear contrast made known to the dog between right and wrong (though I'm not talking moral right and wrong here). Good correction training also is fair, teaches the dog WHATis required and practices the dog before corrections are given with a goal of making the dog NOT NEED corrections. Good training is not truly correction BASED...that's just what those who don't believe in corrections tend to believe about it.

Second, there is crummy, ineffective treat training and crummy, ineffective training that uses corrections.

Third, there is a big diff to me between a dog that has to have treats nearby to respond and a dog that has to wear a collar to respond...the goal is always to not NEED either ... eventually. BUT since most anywhere you go with a dog the dog needs a collar and leash, it is one less thing to worry about if you don't have treats on hand. And if the goal of training is total obedience, on and off leash...then when you finish training it really doesn't matter how you started, only that the method of training worked. If the goal of training is just semi-good obedience then whether the dog is wearing a choke chain or has to have treats...it doesn't matter.

Now as far as choke chain use leading to fear or other negative fall-out...that's simply not true unless the training is bad, unfair, abusive, doesn't pay attention to the dog's response, isn't individualized...etc. All three of my dogs were trained with an 'OLD' method that involved the use of a choke chain and corrections. None are fearful (Thule practically levetates with joy when her choke chain comes off the hook!) of doing wrong...all do great to the level they were trained. One is a therapy dog (the one I trained exclusively) and a sweetie...the others are also happy, playful, well balanced doggies.

[Adina P]

Finally... when choosing a trainer the things I consider important:

What results does this trainer have with his/her dogs? What have they accomplished in training? Any obedience titles? What does the training LOOK like? Watch a class or two and see. Does it seem fair? By fair a dog should first be TAUGHT then practiced...correcting before a dog understands (with exception for a few things) I don't consider fair. The dog should know what it is supposed to do. Is the correction neutral? Meaning is the handler calm and unaffected or is he angry and snarky and turning the correction into a personal thing toward the dog? Corrections, for me, must be neutral and impersonal...just a cause/effect thing.

How do the trainers dogs look when they are working? Do they seem content, happy, willing or sullen and fearful?

As far as mostly/only positive training...I'd say if that is the direction you decide to go...look for the same thing: a trainer who is ACCOMPLISHED and even better a clicker trainer as I think if you're gonna go to treats it is a great way to do it as it is a more precise method.

Good luck...find something you believe in wholeheartedly and you'll do better that way :)

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Thanks for all this wonderful advice. I've decided to pay for a private session next week with this trainer and watch how she works with me and Guinness. I'll also have the opportunity to ask all these questions. I completely agree that it is critical to be fair to the dog. They need to fully understand what is being asked of them before there can be any correction. I also agree that there should be a way to combine the reward based and correction based training approaches. But most of all, it needs to be fun and rewarding for both of us. If it's not, then it's worthless. If I sense that the training is generating any fear or anxiety I'll stop it and look elsewhere. Again, thanks everyone!

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Well, I went to the first training session today. Since it's the first one, and I really wasn't sure if I would like it, I took a private class. It was very interesting. We did use a choke collar, but I never had any sense that I was hurting Guinness. It was clear that he fully understood all the commands, but his performance was spotty. For example, I could easily put him in a sit/stay, but if I moved away or diverted attention from him he would get up. After ten minutes with her, I could put him in a sit/stay and actually leave the room, and he didn't even move. The same thing happened with the down. I was actually able to put him in a down/stay every time a dog came in for daycare. We did the training in the lobby of the daycare, because the trainer wanted distractions. At first, he was looking for treats (because that's what he is used to), but half way into the session he gave up on that. Bottom line is he previously was obeying me because he wanted a reward, and it was somewhat on his terms. The trainer believes that with two more sessions, he will be completely off lead and reliable. At that point the choke collar is totally a non-issue because it isn't even used. There was also a very positive aspect to the training, because every time he did comply he got tons of praise. Basically, I became the reward versus the treats. So, because the results were so positive, I'm going to continue with her for now. She says it's all about having your dog see you as the leader, which means there is no option in their minds not to follow. She also believes that this training approach forces the dog to use his mind much more that the treat based method. I'm not 100% convinced yet, but I admit I was pretty amazed at how much better Guinness did. I will continue with her homework exercises each day, and then I will go back in two weeks for the next lesson.

[Adina P]

Well that sounds fair to me! But the probability of complete off leash control with two more sessions ONLY sounds a bit lofty! If that happens I'd be THOROUGHLY impressed...but he's still young and may still test you, need more practice to seal the deal. Good luck!

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Absolutely, Adina. She also made it clear to me that the success lies with the daily practice. If she's right about him being off lead after two more lessons, I'll be totally amazed.

[Adina P]

yeah, I'd be afraid you might set the two of you up for failure if you expect off lead reliability. The FASTEST 'old school' method of training I know of can get (those who are skilled and really do it right and have an 'average' dog) an off lead dog in 3 months--that's with daily training with lots of distractions for about 40 min a day. I can't even imagine a program that could do it faster where the training lasts! But I'm open!

[Tammy & Gracie]

Wow, I'm impressed. That's alot of distraction for an early lesson!