Commercial Foods-The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Tell us what commercial foods have worked for you and which have caused problems; information, questions, warnings and advice on dog food companies, ingredients, brands, and switching foods.
(Recall information now in it's own discussion here in The Food Group)

[PB]

My pup (14 mos. old) is a miniature labradoodle. I was thinking of trying the small breed formula. Do you think that the Wilderness would be too high in protein for her? I was considering the Wilderness for my 10 year old dog who had a malignant tumor and the vet recommended a high protein diet. She's now on Evo. I'd like both dogs to be on the same food (selfish reasons) but was afraid that the wilderness might be too rich for the pup.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

There is conflicting info about high protein diets for puppies, but the greatest concern with this involves large breed puppies. There is less reason for concern with smaller breeds, such as your mini LD.
I know of many excellent purebred poodle breeders who start their puppies on raw diets, which are almost entirely protein based, and not only do these pups thrive, but the breeders strongly recommend that the new owner keep the dog on the raw diet. While I am not a fan of raw feeding, I value these breeders' opinions and am sure of their concern for their puppies, so I am sure that if there were any health risks involved, they would not recommend these extremely high protein diets.
After typing the above, I just noticed that your 'pup" is not a pup, lol! Dogs are considered adults at 1 year old, small breeds even sooner. Most dogs of any size can go to adult formulas at 9 or 10 months of age.

[GBK]

My Kona is a meduim at 32lbs 2years old and she is doing fine, I have been feeding this now for about 4 months. Here is an article with interesting information regarding protein and dogs:
http://www.thepetcenter.com/article.aspx?id=3408

[Pat & "Tucker"]

I just switched to Canidae. I wanted to switch to Fromms but had a difficult time finding it except for "special order".
My dood has started to have loose stools - some runny. I didn't find this consumer affairs discussion until now. See link below. The food sounds terrible the way people are writing about it. Comments?

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/pets/canidae.html

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Pat, much of what these people are saying is biologically and physiologically impossible; there is nothing in the formula that could cause these kinds of health problems.
Here are the ingredients in the current All Life Stages formula:

CANIDAE All Natural Ingredients
Chicken meal, turkey meal, lamb meal, brown rice, white rice, rice bran, peas, potatoes, oatmeal, cracked pearled barley, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), millet, tomato pomace, natural flavor, flaxseed meal, ocean fish meal, choline chloride, suncured alfalfa meal, inulin (from chicory root), lecithin, sage extract, cranberries, beta-carotene, rosemary extract, sunflower oil, yucca schidigera extract, dried enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, cobalt proteinate, papaya, pineapple.

Here's the Chicken & Rice ingredients:
Chicken meal, brown rice, white rice, rice bran, cracked pearled barley, peas, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), millet, tomato pomace, natural flavor, flaxseed meal, potassium chloride, choline chloride, suncured alfalfa meal, inulin (from chicory root), lecithin, sage extract, cranberries, beta-carotene, rosemary extract, sunflower oil, yucca schidigera extract, dried enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried lactobacillus casei fermentation product, dried lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, cobalt proteinate, papaya, pineapple

Nothing there that could cause seizures, cancer, spinal deformities, etc. Not even ear infections.
There was a huge uproar back a year or two ago when Canidae changed their formulas; it was all you read about in the forums. People were very upset, as most of us would be if our dogs were dependent on just one particular food and the formula suddenly changed with no warnings. In the case of the Canidae formula, the protein level dropped, the protein source changed, and the grain increased...all things that can cause digestive upsets and require a period of adjustment. But not things that are necessarily harmful.
Dogs do get digestive upsets when their diets are abruptly changed, especially if the macronutrient proportions change significantly, and they are not used to eating a variety of foods. So it's understandable that there may have been diarrhea or vomitting initially. The rest of those tales are either exaggerated or there were a lot of coincidences. The power of suggestion can be also be a powerful thing...every time some particular "new" disease gets press, suddenly everyone has it.
One of the reasons I started this group was because of my own frustration with people's uneducated and sometimes foolish ideas about food as the source of every health issue. Think about it. When you or a family member gets a cold, an ear infection, a flaky scalp, a sore back, or God forbid, a lump, do you immediately wonder if it was caused by your food? Of course you don't. Why then do we do this with our dogs? I'm speaking about those people blaming spinal problems etc. on food, not you.
If you switched to Canidae abruptly from a food that was radically different in terms of the ingredients or the amounts of protein, grain, etc., then it makes sense that your dog has loose stools. Without knowing what food you were using, what formula you switched to, and how you switched over, it's hard for me to advise you on how to adjust your dog's diet.
I know that Adina feeds Canidae to Rosco and Thule, and they are both thriving. I am by no means pushing you to stay with it if you are uncomfortable...there are lots of other good choices out there. But let's look at your particular dog's situation and see what we can figure out, without anecdotal info from people who, frankly, are saying things that just aren't possible. :-)

[Pat & "Tucker"]

Thanks for the reply Karen. I'm not sure of the reasons for bacterial and fungal fermentation products (nor therir processing). I was reading about these products for horses and cows. A few of these bacteria are part of normal flora but where is the evidence that says dogs need extra bacteria in their gut? I see a lot of info for equine but haven't found info for dogs. The trichoderma is an aspergillis product that does not seem to fit any picture medically to me. I'm still searching. Aspergillis are not normal flora and can cause severe problems espcially in an immunocompromised host. I have to compare some other foods and see if any contain the trichoderma. How about the Yucca extract? It is well know that some of these "natural products", in humans are not always safe- they are not regulated by the FDA. I wish I could find some studies in animals where these bacteria/ yeast and other "natural products" are beneficial to dogs. I should have thought about this more before I bought the food - still reading. / Pat

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The fermentation products in the ingredients are probiotics. What many people don't realize is that there is good & bad bacteria, or flora as you said. Lots of people here give their dogs probiotics separately, but the better foods usually contain them as well.
I don't know specifically about the trichoderma, but I am going to try & research it as well. And it's hard to find sources to research this tuff, because the guidelines and regulations don't exist like they do for people, or are buried in miles of AAFCO documents.
You are so right that a lot of "natural" products are not good for humans or dogs. I always remind people that mold is natural, lol.
This is another reason why it's so great to have people participating in this group...we all research & learn together. Please let us know what you find out!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Just checked on the trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation...it produces a cellulase enzyme. I believe that all the fermentation products are the chemical names for precursors of digestive enzymes.

[Pat & "Tucker"]

So Tucker has been on the Canidae for two weeks now and no more runny stools! guess it was just the transition. In re: to your post above- yes the bacteria are suppose to aid in digestion- but I still wonder - are they really necessary, you know? I still may switch over to Fromms if I can get a local place to keep stock of it, rather then spcecial order.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Pat, here's a link to the section of The Dog Food project website where they discuss the importance of probiotics (good bacteria) in dogs' diets. I think this will reassure you about some of those ingredients.
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=probiotics

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I'm so glad you asked this question, Pat, because i'm learning all kinds of new things while researching these ingredients.
Yucca schidigera extract is dervied from the yucca plane, and it reduces the amount of amonia in the waste products of animals. It is sold as a supplement for humans, and supposedly has all kinds of health benefits, but in dog food, it is used primarily to reduce the odor of the waste products.
It isn't in Jackdoodle's Orijen, but if it reduced the odor of his waste products, it should be!

[F, Calla & Luca]

Karen, I wonder how it reduces the amount of ammonia and whether that is a good thing. Something are "supposed' to smell I think.