From Class to Real Life...how do YOU do it?

[Adina P]

I have seen a similar complaint from many doodle owners:

"My labradoodle has been through 3 classes and still pulls on lead"

or

"My goldendoodle has graduated intermediate but still doesn't listen to me most of the time"

So I can't help but wonder...for those of you struggling to achieve reliable obedience, outside of class:

--How much time do you put in daily outside of class?

--Where do you practice outside of class?

--How often do you take your dog out "off duty" for outings, walks, etc...and why?

--Does your trainer actually work with you on problem solving when your results aren't up to par?

So many people come here to ask for solutions and I always wonder "why isn't their trainer helping them solve this?" Not that I mind such questions--I think it's GREAT that we all can get support from each other here and pass on helpful tips/ideas.

I just always wonder how qualified the trainer of the class is if their teaching isn't leading his/her student to success. I teach diabetes classes and would feel like I FAILED (and I know I have in some instances) to do my job if my patients ended up asking their tough questions of all their friends and didn't ask me. Or if patients were struggling and gave up because I didn't explain things well enough. I WANT my patients to push me for help and extra explanations if things don't make sense or they are struggling.

If a trainer knows their stuff...they should be able to work with students when they aren't getting results at home, on the street, etc...and help them fine tune things. If not...something seems off....

I guess I'm curious as to the answers to these questions above because I'm saddened that so many go to classes and pay hundreds of dollars and come home with the same problems as before. I don't think your doodles are broken and I don't think YOU are broken :-D But I do think something is missing.

Not that my dogs are perfect. I'm still working on Thule's reliability and polishing Rosco, but I know what we have to do. I don't voice our training conundrums except when I talk to a couple trainers I trust because I found what works for me and it does work for me...it's just a matter of time to get each dog to their higher level. Anyway...my answers are below to the questions above.

[F, Calla & Luca]

No, I use prong collars on both my dogs. My 9 mo. old has not had her coat cut and it works fine. I put the collar high up and try to get under the coat.

[Adina P]

Is he learning something specific while you use it? For example when he goes on walks is he in training mode and learning to HEEL or do something specific? I think it's MUCH more effective (any training collar) if used in conjunction with an obedience LESSON rather than just to prevent pulling or punish a pull.

Does your trainer recommend their use in class? If so did she help you fit it properly? I usually find it only flips over if it is too loose or the prongs too big. I use the smallest size prongs on my 85 lb doodle and simply bought a few extra prong links. Prong isn't my typical tool, but haven't found neck fur to get in the way except when I try to take it off.

As to consistency...it depends on what method you're using. My dog always has his choke chain on (what we use) when he is learning something new, practicing, or polishing something he already knows. Occasionally I practice things he knows well around the house while his flat collar is on (not leashed) but only when I know he's gonna do it and we are just giving him a chance to do something well.

But any training collar needs to only be on when the dog is supervised. If your prong is only used on walks...then be consistent with it on walks...but I do recommend (my opinion) to actually be TEACHING or practicing a command (again what does your trainer teach you to do) rather than just walking.

[Adrianne Matzkin]

--How much time do you put in daily outside of class?
time spent purposefully for a full training session - eh, not so much. But I think every time we are together it is a training session in one way or another.

--Where do you practice outside of class?
I take both girls to work with me. We 'practice' walking nicely on a leash, stop and sit at every curb, sittting and waiting while I fumble every time looking for change for the parking meter (I don't know why I am never prepared for that - CRAFTS??) and they must sit for a longer period of time at the front door. Their 'treat' for that is to be allowed to plow up the steps - I wait at the bottom. If we didn't practice this every single time we go for a walk I would be laying face down in the parking lot.
We practice walking nicely to and from the car to the dog park so we start over and it takes them longer to go and play. They must sit and wait until I open the gate and release them to go in.
While I make their dinner
They must wait until they are told that their bowl is theirs and they can eat
While I eat my dinner - Samantha knows to go to 'her place' while we eat; Charli is a work in progress. I am looking forward to the day that I am not getting out of my chair to put her back in 'her place'.

--How often do you take your dog out "off duty" for outings, walks, etc...and why?
Every time we are out they are 'on duty' as far as paying attention, walking nicely and no jumping and greeting politely - that is always the hardest being cute Doodles and the high pitched, excited human voice 'OMG, how cute, what kind of doggy are they, etc..
I don't think there is ever a time they are 'off duty'. Standing while grooming; going up and down the steps is a wait; waiting for permission to come up on the bed; playing ball - Samantha gets so possessed that I make her 'look at me' before I will throw it; the pet food store - they give her treats but they know my rule that they must work for every one

--Does your trainer actually work with you on problem solving when your results aren't up to par? Charli is in Puppy Kindergarten. Her trainer helps us understand at the age of our puppies what we should and should not expect. She also tries to explain that breeds are 'wired' differently than others and what you should expect from a retriever is different from a terrier and how you should work with their differences.
Last week she set up an agility tunnel to see who would go through the tunnel and how far. Treats were put in at the beginning, thrown a little further with Mom at the other end calling her puppy with a treat being shown. Her purposed of this test was to see how 'fearful' each puppy was with something they have never done before. It was very interesting to see the puppies that do the chasing in playtime were sometimes the 'fearful' of going through the tunnel. She worked with each puppy and discussed it with each Mom. Very insightful!!! BTW - Charli who does likes to chase but not TO be chased went through the tunnel after seeing the treats! She has a 'fear' issue about being chased but not for new situations.

[Adina P]

I think it's smart to not relax expectations ever...but what I meant by 'off duty' is not on-command...able to play, walk around, sniff, etc where the dog is not performing any particular task. That doesn't mean naughtiness is accepted or not dealt with, it just means the dog is allowed to chill and do something it enjoys--which is what my dogs do most of the day: sleep, come for snuggles, play in the yard, etc. They are not following a specific duty, just chillin.

Initially when Rosco was learning obedience stuff (heel, sit, down, stay, recall) there was no 'walking' without walking IN HEEL and multiple stops to practice sits, downs, stays, recalls. That's what I meant by walks BEING training (of specific things you're learning in class or from a private trainer or whatever) rather than walks being mere strolls where their owner corrects them if they do something 'bad.' We rarely just did walks on the sidewalk going straight ahead and back home. Most of what we did was heeling in parks, heeling in stores, heeling around town...with no goal other than getting heel stronger and better and more reliable around distractions.

It's not that my doggies aren't held accountable on 'off duty' time, it's just that they aren't on command or 'working' specifically on anything around the house, in the yard, and with Rosco I do do casual walks now that I CAN call him into heel if needed. But until I could call him into a heel as needed, I ONLY did heeling walks where he learned that he had to heel here, there, with that distraction, this distraction, in crowds, around dogs, along the dog park fence, etc.

Sounds like your plan is working very nicely for you =)

[LuvMyAbby&Kaela]

OK jokes aside and in my defense so as not to come across as a total slacker, I am infact pretty rigid about my dogs behavior. If someone comes to the door I am ready. I let them in and then hold my dog in the sit position (Abby is still too excited to hold the sit more than a few seconds on her own before she wants to paw the guests)...with her I have always called it "jumping on people" but it is not really jumping at all, it is more wanting to stand on her hind legs and wiggle like crazy hugging them with her arms (she uses her front legs and paws as arms and hands). When we walk (sometimes it is one at a time, sometimes all 3 they are always in training as well, "heel" "nice hello" "no bark" and more importantly "GOOD DOG" when they pass other children, dogs, noisy objects etc... without any reaction whatsoever. Abby has already clued in that I would like her to surpress her instincts and not react to passersby whether a dog or skateboarder or anything inbetween.

I have been working on hand signals from afar at home. She is spot on with stopping, sitting and laying with hand signals from across the room. This is exciting, she always did them up close but now I can get her to do them from afar. She holds stay really well but still not for very long durations (I think my max was 4 minutes) before she got sick of waiting for my release signal. But the home practicing I by far dont do enough of.

My trainer was good but left a bit of a bitter taste in my mouth when she handled a couple of dogs too roughly and made them squeak. I took it really personally when she used Abby as an example and was trying to get Abby to go from the lay back up to the sit with signals. Abby kept just laying down and I could tell she was confused when the trainer said "sit" when she was already down (To Abby "lay" "sit" - both mean down) So the trainer jerked and "NO" and jerked hard enough the second time to make Abby squeak. I was furious and hurt for Abby inside!. Abby is a soft dog, a born pleaser, there was no need to inflict pain to teach her. At home I taught her my own way and she was "ohhhhh I get it now! Laying and sitting arent all just plain old down and I can go from lay to sit not just the other way around. And no standing up is involved'

Also when she was training another dog and basically confusing the hell out of it and saying "this is a classic hissy fit" I was thinking you arent reading that dog right, the dog looks confused and mortified because no matter what he does he thinks he will get it wrong and be corrected. He looked stressed and feeling damned if I do damned if I dont and actually was mouthing her feet in a freakout reaction because she kept stepping on the leash to bring him to the down position. He was going down to lay just slowly and she was correcting him before he even got it wrong because he wasnt flopping onto his belly fast enough.

I will go to the level 2 class as she is the only trainer around I will take what I want and leave what I dont, and she wont take my dogs leash again.

[Adina P]

Ugh I'm so sad that the only trainer locally is one that makes you so uneasy. It would be hard for me to go back to a class where I disagreed with so much. Especially if I didn't trust the trainer with my dogs. If you're gonna correct something...it certainly needs to have been taught and understood by the dog first. So if a dog has not yet been taught a command or didn't realize the diff between sit and down...correcting is unfair.

4 min stay is pretty good...now all that's needed is work around distractions, staying at a distance, staying with you out of sight (but still holding a leash attached to her)...all of those will strengthen the stay.

I don't like holding dogs in stays because it doesn't give them a choice to learn from: 'If I get up I get an unpleasant consequence/lose my reward...if I hold still I get a reward!' But if they are to NEW to something then it is too much to hold a stay while a guest pops in so ya kinda have to force them. At that point I don't even try...I just remove the dog OR let the guest get loved up and in the meantime work hard on stays while a stranger approaches so that I can be fair/justified in correcting when guests come over because the dog at that point does understand his choices and consequences. Anyway...just sharing what I do...doesnt mean you have to do it this way :)

[Allyson, Peri & Taquito]

We have training time about 5 times/day for 10 minutes each. My issue is when we go outside for a walk. I usually have both dogs and it is incredibly hard to practice loose leash training with Peri when Taquito is pulling on the other lead. I got T when he was older and never really trained him (well behaved except on leash). Sooo, a lot of times, it is really hard to have 1:1 training outside of the house with Peri and this is where she needs it most! With distractions. My trainer is great and is certified and all that jazz - it is me that needs to figure out how to get her outside without Taquito so I can work in distracted environments. I will own that part of it!

[Adina P]

So what is the obstacle to only taking one dog at a time? Since you total 50 minutes a day in training (broken up through the day)...why not use 30 minutes with one dog for a training walk and 30 minutes with the other dog for a walk?

I always take one dog at a time for training and training can BE the walk that is set up to teach various things. You might walk for a few paces and then have Peri do a sit, a stay...the more paces...then another sit/stay....then more paces then a down or down and stay while you walk around him...etc. I find 'loose leash' a much more difficult concept (as it's not specific as a position) than teaching heel.

[Allyson, Peri & Taquito]

My problem is that my husband and I both work. When we get home, it is dark outside and hard to train. When we take turns during the day going home, it is only one of us. So that is the issue. It is harder than you think in our situation. And I have a real problem leaving Taquito out of a walk when he would be inside by himself after a long day at home! So, if Peri ends up not the best, it will just be that way! My trainer has not taught us heel yet, so I don't know about this yet.

[Adina P]

I see and makes sense if they've been couped up all day. I hate this time of year and the limited daylight. I probably wouldn't train in the dark either. It's a pain and kinda scary.

I suppose one option (just brainstorming out loud) is to just use a no-pull harness of some kind during the weekday walks and do the training outings on the weekend individually with Peri where you set up situations to help Peri learn and get better... ?

[Allyson, Peri & Taquito]

Yep, that is the plan! We do use a harness with her. I just wish I could do it every day to really, really work on the leash issue. AND working on staying, sitting, etc...being in a communal space where other dogs are distracting her. I don't like waiting 5 days to do that! It is dark when we do our first walk now and almost dark when I get home - yuk!
Our trainer does handouts which help us remember what to work on each week - "homework" helps us immensely...

[Adina P]

That makes sense... does your trainer offer handouts to refer to? If not, might be a good thing to suggest (in a nice...'hey I have an idea' way) for her future classes.