Are well meaning breeders breeding problems into our doodles?

[DeeDee and Sheila]

I put this discussion on the debate page and didn't receive any replies, so I'll try it here on the forum.  I am hearing about many doodles that have tummy problems.  This HAS to come from the poodle side in my humble opinion, because I've owned a couple labs and have never even heard of a lab that wouldn't eat anything, including panty hose if given the chance.

Then Sheila had Perthes disease, basically getting her hip socket cut off bc of a genetic blood disease whereby the blood wasnt reaching up to the hip bone.  Breeder paid costs up to the price of the dog/ or I could have sent 7 month old Sheila back to breeder (not an option in my book).  Luckily only one hip was involved, 2 would have been over $5000 in expenses. This disease CANNOT be tested for, period.  But it occurs in many types of small dogs and my daughter who is a vet cried w/ me when she heard Sheila had it.  It involved a horrible operation at U of Illinois that almost killed Lil Sheila. Then we had 4 mos of swim therapy 2x/week at the U of Illinois, which was costly and was a 3 hr round trip for treatment. She still uses only 3 legs sometimes when tired and then I give her a pain pill.  It was a nightmare.

The breeder told me she would pull Sheila's mom off the breeding line, the dad was already retiring but had bred hundreds of puppies, so we didn't thing it was him.  But she didn't pull Sheila's mom off the line as promised and she is still breeding Sheila's mom , although with a different sire. She is also using a male puppy from THAT breeding as a future breeder. I asked my daughter and U of I and they said they know it's genetic, but they don't know if its due to a recessive gene or if it could be a gene from just one dog.  My daughter's opinion is that the breeder is "playing with fire" and her undergrad degree is in genetics.

I am disappointed about this and wonder how a good, sturdy breed is going to be built if breeders do these things (and this was a reputable breeder).

What do you dkers think?

 

[Gayle Miller]

heart wrenching post on poor little Sheila!  And Jane, you raise a very interesting point.  In my anticipation of my pup in July, admittedly even after doing a year's worth of research on the ADL, I know I stilll hold some physical characteristics of my own preference at the top of my list!  I, too, have read over and over again about the wonderful temperment of this breed and how they prove to be so intelligent.  One almost takes that for granted that each and every  pup will uphold those qualities.  Because there can be such a vast difference in the appearance of the Doodle dogs in general, obviously this is how we all can get obsessed with meeting the physical characteristics of  our own preference.  Obviously, one is guaranteed the characterictis of a collie, labrador retriever, german shepard, etc.  I don't know what the answer is...but to only hope the breeder each of us carefully selects, does  in fact prove to be an honorable and reputable breeder with the dogs lineage and reproduction being of most importance!

[F, Calla & Luca]

I don't think it's fair to generalize from this case to breeder's in general. That said I think in this instance the parents should not be bred again. I agree with Karen, sometimes genetic diseases do not show up in the parents before they are bred if they are bred young. But if such a disease does show up in parent or offspring that should be the end of the line. I do know some breeders use dogs with recessive traits bred to dogs without the trait to produce pets or to produce  breeders who will be tested and I guess this is acceptable, i.e. Progressive Retinal atrophy.

[Ginny Nightingale]

I am proud to work with a breeder who tests for everything and then some---none of her dogs are bred before all the tests are done and the breeding dogs pass with flying colors--That said, you can still have issues that come up--but far less often and far less serious.

[Jennifer,Chloe & Myla]

Sad to think of it, but not everyone is doing the right thing. So sorry about Sheila-I would ask why she hasn't pulled the dog like she said she would-that right there is dishonesty.

[Elizabeth & Cosmo]

Let me begin by saying that my comments pertain only to the ALD, because that is what I know. I don't intend to slight any other flavor of doodle by not mentioning it specifically!

For me, it would be important that the breeder I was considering was a member of the Australian Labradoodle Association of America (ALAA). I believe that this is a mark of professionalism and indicates attention to an external standard of conduct. They have a code of ethics that all breeder-members agree to. You can read them here:

http://www.ilainc.com/CodeofEthics.html

I know that any code of ethics is only effective if people actually follow it in practice, but I believe the breeders I know really do.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

As was previously mentioned, dogs are being bred too young; before some problems would manifest themselves.  I also think some moms are used too often before being retired because they have such beautiful puppies and the breeders can sell a 'sure' thing. I also think that some of the problems we find in our doodles are just ones that would crop up anyway, but we think since we paid so much for a dog from a breeder it should be perfect in all ways. 

I assumed good temperament and health when I got Ned so if I were to buy another doodle, coat would have been my priority.  Now of course, I realize that while coat could be my main irrelevant priority, temperament and health would be my first two.

[Kyoko]

I realize that some breeder seems to think that dogs are like chickens or something, only concerned about the profit. You know, how they make the chickens grow up faster now so that they can turn them around much quicker and make more profit? (Not that it is OK to do that to the chickens) Sometimes what you see on the breeder's website is not really the truth either! Really, even if they said the puppies are from this mom and dad, who knows! They could be any dog's puppy.... Really ethically wrong. Some breeder may say that they would pull the dog from the breeding just to make you satisfied, hoping you would never check back. Or saying the pups are from that particular mom and dad, to make it look like they have more breeding dogs and are not breeding the other dogs back to back... Who knows..... What I say now is that, if you cannot go to the breeder and see the kennel, dogs and other puppies in their care prior to making the selection, DON"T buy from them!!!! Just like I can say I am 26 years old, drop dead gorgeous, with rich husband, and live in the manshion on DK ( hahaha), and put some realistic pictures I found on google images,  they can say anything on their website and show any pictures.

[F, Calla & Luca]

You are too funny!

[Kyoko]

I am dead serious, though. The kennel I went to yesterday, the facility did not even look like the one on their website, let alone some of the facility on the website did not evewn exist!! Health Guarantee they said they have on the pups? They had no vet record at all!!!

[Pam & Trixie]

I really think too many breeders are in it for the $$ only (not all- but alot of them)

I just looked at a website that I had looked at & Contacted when I was looking for my Puppy.  They are retiring one of their Moms - which is a good idea.  But get this-They are selling her!!   Thats how they retire their dog?  I think this is terrible!

She is 6 years old & they are done with her & getting rid of her.  How horrible : (

 

Im sorry Sheila has had such a rough time.  The breeder should pull her mom. (they could sell her - Just kidding)   I would follow up on that & ask them why they havent.

[DeeDee and Sheila]

I did follow up on it and she said, oh it will be fine if I just breed her to a different sire.  She said that HER vet in this itty bitty town said, oh it's a rare disease.  My daughter has only been in practice for 2 yrs. and she has seen 3 cases.  Then she never sees the dog again.  You know what happens, people can't afford the treatment (has to be done at a vet teaching school).

Selling a breeding dog.  Geez, that IS horrible, I agree w/ you. 

I don't know if I'd ever trust another breeder.  I'd insist on a clause that IF either dog has had problems, or any puppy has had problems that those problems must be disclosed.  That way I could sue if I got a dog whose parents had prior problems.

[Adina P]

That is really common Pam.  Even among top breeders.  I like the guardian home option for this reason: the breeding dog starts off in his/her forever home from the start.