Are well meaning breeders breeding problems into our doodles?

[DeeDee and Sheila]

I put this discussion on the debate page and didn't receive any replies, so I'll try it here on the forum.  I am hearing about many doodles that have tummy problems.  This HAS to come from the poodle side in my humble opinion, because I've owned a couple labs and have never even heard of a lab that wouldn't eat anything, including panty hose if given the chance.

Then Sheila had Perthes disease, basically getting her hip socket cut off bc of a genetic blood disease whereby the blood wasnt reaching up to the hip bone.  Breeder paid costs up to the price of the dog/ or I could have sent 7 month old Sheila back to breeder (not an option in my book).  Luckily only one hip was involved, 2 would have been over $5000 in expenses. This disease CANNOT be tested for, period.  But it occurs in many types of small dogs and my daughter who is a vet cried w/ me when she heard Sheila had it.  It involved a horrible operation at U of Illinois that almost killed Lil Sheila. Then we had 4 mos of swim therapy 2x/week at the U of Illinois, which was costly and was a 3 hr round trip for treatment. She still uses only 3 legs sometimes when tired and then I give her a pain pill.  It was a nightmare.

The breeder told me she would pull Sheila's mom off the breeding line, the dad was already retiring but had bred hundreds of puppies, so we didn't thing it was him.  But she didn't pull Sheila's mom off the line as promised and she is still breeding Sheila's mom , although with a different sire. She is also using a male puppy from THAT breeding as a future breeder. I asked my daughter and U of I and they said they know it's genetic, but they don't know if its due to a recessive gene or if it could be a gene from just one dog.  My daughter's opinion is that the breeder is "playing with fire" and her undergrad degree is in genetics.

I am disappointed about this and wonder how a good, sturdy breed is going to be built if breeders do these things (and this was a reputable breeder).

What do you dkers think?

 

[Pam & Trixie]

I didnt know that Adina.  I have never known a Breeder to do that.  I know lots of breeders of other breeds.

[Adina P]

As Carol said, it is the only way to really have a 'program' that is more than breeding one's own pet dogs.  And if you're JUST breeding your own handful of pet dogs it probably isn't a program that has any future.  Usually bitches aren't bred past a certain age and to continue a program of breed improvement you'd have to have a lot of dogs living with you--not always a good thing for the dog or the person.  There are limits to how many house dogs most people can keep reasonably cared for, groomed, trained, etc. 

[Carol Brand]

In the purebred show world it is quite common to place retired breeding dogs.  At some point, if breeders are going to move forward with their program, they have to place dogs or they will find themselves, as we say.... over dogged.   Speaking as a Poodle breeder, retired Poodle show dogs are in SUPER high demand because they are typically very well socialized, leash trained, crate trained and they are pros at being groomed.  I get requests for them all the time and there are never enough to go around.

 

Re guardian homes.....

Guardian homes are really common in the Doodle world.  They are not as common in the purebred show world. Guardian homes allow a breeder to have multiple breeding dogs without having to keep them in kennels. 

 

On the surface, this seems like a good idea but I have to wonder how well a breeder knows the true temperament of her breeding stock when those dogs are placed at 8 weeks and living with other people often at some distance.

[DeeDee and Sheila]

I have talked to this breeder numerous times.  She is a member and officer of the Australian Labradoodle Club, the gold standard in ALD raising and trying to get the dogs entereed into the AKC, International Labradoodle Association, National Labradoodle Advisor, Asso of Reputable Breeders, her dogs have been featured on Alpo commercials (she feeds Origen) and in Fetch Dog Magazine.  I visited her premises and met all the breeders and her premises.  She gets her dogs from the originators of the ALD from Australia, Primetimes Doodles.  She was awarded the National Business Person in the country last year for her breeding business.  So I think she is the real deal.

She and I have talked about this situation and she says, "my vet says this disease is rare", yet the U of Ill disagrees, as does my daughter, who has been a vet and has seen several cases of this disease.  She refers them to the Univ of Denver and never sees the dog again.  Many people can't afford the fees.

I had NO PROBLEM when Sheila was diagnosed.  The breeder and I cried together and the breeder promised to pull her mom off the line.  She even said the family who keeps the breeding dog was so excited, bc they take care of the dog and then get her for free after two years.

 

I have a deaf daughter.  I know that things can and do happen.  It's nature.  But my problem is that she could be adding to the problem by not pulling mom and son off the breeding line.  She knows I have a problem with this. I cancelled my order for a second puppy from her.  I also called another very prominent breeder that knows this breeder, and she was truly shocked that this problem occurred, that there are 7 breeds of dogs in ALD's and that she has never heard of one having this disease.

 

I hate to let this get to me.  I've moved on and Sheila is fine.  Do you think I should/am obligated to report this incedent to ALC which would embarrass her and she is a lovely person.  I so hate to do this.  But if these breeders have no one holding them accountable, then they can do anything they want. What do you think?

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

There may be seven different breeds of dogs in ALDs, but there is also a ton of inbreeding. There are known genetic problems with some of the dogs in many of the ALD bloodlines.

It's never a good thing, in dog breeding, to see the same bloodlines on both sides of a pedigree. This is one of the problems.

 

[Carol Brand]

Legg-Calve Perthes is a health issue in both Toy/Mini Poodles and Cocker Spaniels.  It is not rare (regardless of what a small town vet says) and it does seem to be familial since you can watch it bounce down in a pedigree.

 

I've seen pedigree studies that show that many ALDs are as much as 87% Poodle with the other most dominant parent breed being the Cocker Spaniel, so I don't know why your former breeder or the other prominent ALD breeder would not know about this health issue.

 

Your former breeder is doing nothing but shooting herself in the foot by keeping this breeding bitch in her program.  I love the fact that she is now threatening you.   Sadly, in the end, it is the affected dogs who suffer.

[DeeDee and Sheila]

I have now been threatened by said breeder with a lawsuit if I continue to talk about this.  I have not mentioned the name of the breeder, nor will I. 

[Nicky, Riley & Boris]

huh, just goes to show there's lots of money involved.....

[F, Calla & Luca]

What would be the basis of the lawsuit? There is no penalty for telling the truth as far as I know.

[Jane, Rooney & Stuart]

I'll kick in some $ to help you if she does and there are probably hundreds of others here that would too.  I say shout her name from the rafters - she needs to be accountable.

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

I was hoping this conversation would expose the breeder.   Using the same dogs as breeding stock.   Lawsuit?  The lawsuit, if ever, should be against her and she should be judged by a jury of her peers. Meaning other breeders.  What would they think if they knew?   How would they judge what she is doing.

Some HUMANS and some dogs, should just NOT BE BRED.  Rest my case.

[F, Calla & Luca]

The genetics of this disease are apparently clearer in some breeds than others. But why take a chance? At any rate you do not need to be a detective to find this breeder's identity, just where one might look for it, here on DK.