Best Time to Spay Your Doodle?

[Shari Becker]

Hello all, I am totally baffled by differing pieces of advice that I received about when to spay Lexi.

We have two vets. One who is far away and we consult with on more holistic issues, and one who is local and urban. Our first vet (holistic, country) is fierce that it is healthiest for a dog to cycle once before being spayed. When we visited our local vet, she was horrified that at 7 months, Lexi isn't spayed. She told me that I need to spay her immediately or else she'll have a higher chance of getting Mammary cancer. However, she doesn't do any surgical work.

I called back first vet who basically said she didn't want to spay Lexi - that ideas about spaying are changing, and it's best to wait.

My husband re-read his Monks of Skeet book, and apparently they recommend waiting until one cycle, too, so we decided to wait. We know the holistic vet is an excellent surgeon, and we would trust her to do the procedure...

HOWEVER, just this morning, my husband was at our small, neighborhood dog park and an un-neutered male Lhasa began chasing Lexi and tried to mount her three times. My husband had to ask the owner to keep her dog away from our puppy.

Still, it was stressful. We did a little more research online tonight. It's clear that there is a wide window for spaying ... until 15 months is considered legitimate. But what we didn't know is that Lexi would have to be kept in our city condo unit away from other dogs for three weeks, with dog pads, and then we'd have to wait until all the swelling goes down before she could be neutered. We don't have a yard. We rely on that dog park for all her fun, running, socializing.... We want to do what's best for the dog. But we are totally baffled, and we'd love any insight folks have....

Thanks!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Shari, a dog is not a child. Would you feed your kids from a bowl on the floor? Make them go outdoors to urinate? Walk them on a leash? I don't find the comparison apt or logical at all. 

In fact, with all due respect to the holistic vet, I find it ridiculous. The 12 year old girl isn't going to be sterilized at all, before or after she gets a period. She may very likely want to have a family. 

The dog isn't going to have a family, ever. 

So where is the comparison? 

 

[Robin and Libby Louise]

I'm sorry, Karen, I know this is not humorous but I was thinking all the same things, including the urinating outdoors.  But I totally agree, it's ridiculous!

[Robin and Libby Louise]

And no disrespect to you Shari, at all.  I know it is a confusing situation when medical personnel can't even agree and you are trying to do the best thing for your puppy!  Glad it is all working out.

[Shari Becker]

No disrespect taken. I'm all about hearty dialogue and debate. I find, in general, that's it is very confusing when you walk the line between conventional and holistic. I've found it hard in my own, human, life, too. I have had holistic providers chastise me for vaccinating my kids, and I have had them help me deal with health issues no one else could get a handle on. My life would be easier if I'd just pick a side, I suspect, but I know life is just full of lots and lots of grey....

[Miss Ellie]

Having just gone through this with our puppy...I truly know how frustrating all the different views and opinions of vets are these days.  After much reflection and research, we personally chose to have our puppy spayed at 6 months of age.  I am very glad we did ti then.  Because of her age, she recovered quickly and now you wouldn't even know that it had been done.  Her incision healed beautifully and there is no scar.  Good Luck!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Shari, I just looked at the website, and your breeder's purchase agreement and health warranty requires spaying by 7 months of age. 

[Shari Becker]

Just to reply, Karen. I wasn't suggesting a puppy was the same as a girl, just this idea of a girl not being fully grown until puberty resonated with me. I suspect dogs aren't finished their full growth when they are spayed. If you look online, you will see that the entire holistic vet community prefers spaying after a first heat. However, there are many holistic vets who simply state "if you can do it." If you can't do it properly, then you should spay beforehand.

I did talk to April. She reminded me of the contract, too. (I honestly was just following my vet's lead, not ignoring the contract. I assumed the vet was going to tell me when to do it...) We are planning to spay her ASAP. Already have the pre-op appointment made. We need to abide by the contract, but also as so many of you pointed out here on this board, it just isn't practical for an urban dog with no real yard to essentially have to be quarantined from her community for up to a month. It's not fair for her ... or for us ... Thanks for all your input. It was helpful!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I too meant no disrespect. :)

The thing is that you shouldn't have to choose a "side" between holistic and traditional medicine, because the true meaning of "holistic" is not "natural", but "whole", and in medicine, it refers to looking at the whole picture and the whole patient rather than just treating symptoms. It means utilizing the least harmful and most effective treatments available to resolve the issue. Treatments that are "safe" but not very effective are not in the best interests of the patient. It doesn't have to be drugs versus "natural" remedies, for example. Both have their place in treating most illnesses. The trick is to find a practitioner who is knowledgeable enough and open enough to do that. There are too many "holistic" vets who are just as stubborn and dogmatic as some of the traditional vets in terms of their way being the only right way. In truth, there is rarely only one "right" way to approach anything. But there does have to be some factual science behind it.

Case in point, JD's dermatology specialist. She doesn't label herself as a "holistic" vet, but to me, her approach is truly holistic. She prefers not to use drugs unless absolutely necessary, but she doesn't hesitate to use them when they are in the best interests of the dog. When steroids are necessary, she prefers to use topical steroid lotions that can be applied locally to limit the exposure, as opposed to oral steroids which have a systemic effect, but when the allergic reaction is systemic, she treats it as such, and she lets you know why it is necessary. She recommends "natural" treatments such as evening primrose oil supplements for inflammation, but only because she has reviewed the clinical evidence that the GLA fatty acids in EPO have indeed been shown in double blind peer-reviewed studies to be effective for that particular form of inflammation. In other words, there is reliable science behind the "natural" treatment. Too often in "holistic" medicine, this is not the case.

In the case of an issue such as when is the best time to spay, where there is no absolute 2+2=4 answer, I think all factors have to be taken into account, and that includes practicality and lifestyle issues as well as physical or medical issues. I am sure we would all agree that total well-being depends on emotional and psychological health as well as physical health. 

I have seen many "holistic" vets who advocate not spaying or neutering at all. Just like prey-model raw diets, this might work well for someone living in the wilds of Australia, but it doesn't work well for those of us living in the Chicago suburbs, lol. Living with an intact dog would make me absolutely crazy, and living with a crazy owner would probably be much more detrimental to a dog than being spayed a month earlier than might be ideal. :) 

[F, Calla & Luca]

Great points, Karen.

[Stella]

Just to throw something else in there for you to consider. There is a growing suspicion, and some early evidence, to suggest that you should wait until your dog has stopped growing before spaying or neutering. Dogs need their sex hormones to close their growth plates. Spaying or neutering before they have stopped growing delays growth plate closure (especially of the long bones) and results in a larger dog, that has longer legs. This is being linked to the increasing numbers of dogs blowing their CCL in the knee joints, amongst other musculoskeletal conditions. Obviously, more research is needed, but this is the belief of many of us that are involved in canine rehabilitation.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

One good reason to only have little dogs, lol. Having to keep a dog intact for a year or more would just not be tolerable to me. 

[Stella]

I was surprised to hear my vet (not always known for up to date thinking!) recommending owners try to wait until the dog is 18 months old, or as close as they can get depending on the dogs behaviour. My two were both neutered at 5 months of age on the advice if my vet at the time, and I didn't know any better! In he future, I would try to wait as long as possible towards the dog being fully grown before spaying or neutering.