Opinions please - trainer comments

[Jennifer Tramell]

  My daughter is 11 yrs old and we just joined 4H.  They have a dog obedience class which is 7 wks followed by "graduation" and a dog show.  I thought this would be a great experience for both my daughter, Julianna, and goldendoodle Charlotte.  I believe that working with animals helps children learn self discipline, gentleness, effective communication, and many other traits that are valuable throughout life.  Charlotte is 8 months old and, whereas she is responsive to my commands, she views herself as "one of the kids" and doesn't neccessarily listen to others in the family.  A win-win, I thought.

I have never used a dog trainer before, never taken my dogs to training classes, always did the training myself with success.  I'm not saying that my dogs would win competition obedience contests but they are well mannered, responsive, obedient canine family members.  Last night was the 1st class meeting.  It was no dogs, just a chance to go over what training tools were needed, what would be covered in the class, etc. 

The first thing that got the fur up on the back of my neck was that we are supposed to use a pinch collar (even on a 4 lb poodle).  I am okay with a training/"choke chain" collar but I am a little uneasy about arming a bunch of kids with a pinch collar.  My training philosophy has always been to start with the gentlest method and move up if the dog does not respond.  The idea of sweet Charlotte being snapped with a pinch collar by an 11 yr old just bothers me. 

After I recovered and accepted the pinch collar idea, the trainer said that using a crate is one of the best training tools.  She recommends crating a dog for 2-4 hours prior to a training session.  Says this gives a dog "alone time" and puts the dog in an eager mental state for training.  She is training her corgi for competition obedience shows and he was crated for 4 hours prior to that days training session.  This just floors me......I would think a nice long walk to drain some energy and get the dog paying attention to the leash holder, but crating a puppy for hours?  We haven't had a crate since Charlotte was 3 months old - just didn't work with our situation.

Finally, the trainer made it clear that she did not want parents watching the classes.  This is 4H, a very family oriented organization.  The class is being held in a large arena with plenty of room for parents to sit on top rows and discreetly watch the class without being a distraction.  Charlotte is not Julianna's dog, she is a family dog.  I want to know if I approve of the training, and use the same techniques at home with both Charlotte and Webster.  I also want to see how Julianna and Charlotte interact and how Julianna handles instruction from the teacher.  The 4H agent tried to suggest that in the past parents have watched quietly from the stands and, if a particular parent is a distraction, they are asked to stay out of sight, but the trainer said "I don't want the parents here."  I am trying to give her the benefit of the doubt, but this really bugs me!  This is MY daughter, MY dog, in a family friendly organization.  I am driving 45 minutes to attend this class and I am supposed to sit in the car? 

Anyway, has anyone heard of these training techniques?  The crate theory?  Any thoughts, opinions, ideas?  Thanks for at least letting me vent!

[Carol Brand]

Re pinch collars....  all of these dogs come from different training backgrounds and different working styles.  Since the trainer is training a group class, I'm guessing that the pinch collar puts everyone on somewhat equal footing. (Note.... a pinch collar is totally appropriate for a Toy poodle.  I have used one on a Toy myself with great results).  Also, for some of these kids, the pinch collar is going to make things wayyyyyyyy easier for them.  If sweet Charlotte is a good citizen, then she won't get a correction with the pinch collar during training.

 

Re crate training.....  every dog should be crate trained for a variety of reason, but then that is a different conversation. Crating before training is a common tool and I've seen it used by search and rescue and police dog trainers.  It does indeed put a dog in a an "eager" mental state for training.  You don't want to take the edge off a dog or wear them out before you work them, you want to channel their drive into their work.  A good working dog should not need a long walk in order to pay attention to the person on the end of the leash.

 

Re parents.....  I have three teenagers.  I'm sorry, but over the years I've seen what a giant pain in the rear parents can be when it comes to their children's activities ( I do not exempt myself from this criticism).  Whether is be sports or dance or music or theater, the parents sit there and watch and they simply CAN NOT refrain from giving their own suggestion or feedback.  It may not happen during the lesson, but it happens later.  I totally support this trainer in asking the parents to leave.  The trainer wants to train the class without the parents interfering with their own "training" advice.    

 

My advice is to take a deep breath and step back.  Charlotte and Julianna will be fine.

 

[Adina P]

Carol makes a good point.  Just because a pinch collar is the tool for corrections used in this class doesn't mean everything revolves around correcting the dog with the collar.  At least that's not the norm or accepted way of doing things.

[shelly]

DITTO to everything Allyson said!  I think YOU actually answered your question yourself. I think your daughter would understand - especialy when you explain that the techniques the trainer plans on using are againt your family's values!

[Adina P]

Jennifer doesn't actually KNOW the techniques the trainer will be using.  I think that's the root of her discomfort.  She knows the TOOL that will be used for providing a correction to the dog.  But at this point she knows nothing of the actual training technique, how the dogs will be taught, or how/when the dogs will be corrected.  Without this knowledge there's no way to know if it conflicts with her family's values unless the philosophy of correcting a dog goes against that philosophy.

 

That is what she is wanting to see and find out about.  There are many ways to teach and train something WHILE a dog wears a prong collar.  Some more effective than others.   I just don't think we can make a real judgment about this.  Jennifer has to trust or distrust based solely on appearance and her feelings.  There's always other classes to look into but there's just no way to know with certainty whether this trainer will give Jennifer what she needs to feel comfortable.  Not without trying it or being able to sit in on a class.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

I have not read the other posts yet because I didn't want any other influence to my first reactions.

1) I am not opposed to pinch collars if used correctly and taught correctly - but by a kid  NO NO NO not even a good kid.  Choke chain yes, pinch collar no

2) The training method we use would like your dog to have some quiet time before training. We felt the 40 minute drive to class was enough before class.  For practices our trainer suggested practicing right after you get home or get up in the morning. Personally, I don't see the point of this. If you have a really high energy dog (and one of ours is) even a couple minute isolation creates way too much excitement.

3) Parents not to watch - no way. I have watched activities my children have been in for their entire lives. Heck, my husband even showed up at a couple of our college son's water polo practices. I understand the instructor not wanting you to interfere or participate, but watching from far away should not be a problem.

4) I would not want just any old person training my child to train my dog. I would want to make sure the trainer was skilled and experienced and that I approved of the method. What does the trainer have to hide that you can't even watch from afar?

5) My kid would not be one of the 4H kids participating in this activity.  If you want your daughter and dog to do some training together either enroll them in a city advertised class held in a local park (at least in California we have this sort of thing) or even a PetSmart or PetCo class where you can watch.

Okay, now I read the other posts and here are my current thoughts.

I still think a pinch collar used incorrectly is bad. 

You do not know the training method to be used - find out and approve or don't do it.

I do understand the not wanting parents around - heck, I teach school and I hate parents  watching, watching..... love them helping though.  As a parent, I want to watch at least some of the work.  After seeing the first class or two, maybe you will feel okay with sitting in your car and reading a book.

Was I a hover parent? Overprotective? Yes. Was it always good for the child? No.  But I needed to feel things were fine.

[Jennifer Tramell]

Okay, so after talking with my husband, reading everyone's posts, and stewing for a bit, here is my conclusion. 

1) This is only a 1 hour class for 6 weeks.  If I think the classes are terrible, 6 hours in the life of my dog is not going to do anything that can not be remedied.  I am not worried about those 6 hours in the life of my daughter as we can talk things over the other hours.

2) I am more comfortable with the pinch collar as long as the trainer makes sure that the kids don't see this as "woo hoo! I have power!" and give corrections where they aren't needed.  I know my daughter and sometimes she can over do things, especially if she is excited about being in control. 

3) I'm still not sure if the crating would benefit Charlotte.  My current plan is to have Julianna take her on a nice walk/hike a couple hours before the class.  We will probably meet my husband for supper and then go to the class, so Charlotte will be in the car for 1 1/2 - 2 hrs prior to the class. 

That said, I will be contacting the 4H extension agent about the 'no parents' rule.  I will respectfully explain that I have a problem with not being allowed to discreetly observe and that I will be in the stands watching the class from a distance.  If this is a problem, then I will need to withdraw from the class and receive a refund.  I do not believe that it was the intent of 4H to conduct a class where minor children are attending and parents are not allowed.  In order for a child (especially prior to highschool) to be successful in 4H, parents are needed to assist in many projects, drive to different events, and fund various ventures.

I understand that parents can be a pain but this is not a child training for a school sport or other school event where she will be playing for a team and representing a non-family organization.  This is a class teaching something that will directly involve and affect the family.  Charlotte is a family dog, we will all be participating in her continued training.  We did not sign up for a "no parents" class and, to be honest, the trainer has no right to refuse for parents to observe.  And yes, if I see or hear something that the trainer says which I disagree with, I will talk with my daughter privately and explain how I disagree, however, we will not argue with the trainer.  As an example, what if the trainer bad mouths goldendoodles?  If I have discreetly observed the situation, I can more effectively address it with my daughter and tell her that everyone has different opinions, etc.  Basically if someone says "no parents" I get the attitude of "make me".  I am actually a rather easy going person, tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, and often play devils advocate to help see all sides of a story, BUT I don't take kindly to being told I can't do something, especially when it comes to parental responsibility.

Whew!  I feel better now but I'll probaby wimp out and not contact the agent :-)  My DH tells me I'm "too nice" when I handle confrontational situations.  Thanks for all the opinions and advice.  Anything else?

[Adina P]

Good luck Jennifer. I really hope it turns out to be a decent class.  And the thing about your first point is...even after the first class if you feel it was very BAD you can always quit, right?  I would be FULL of questions for my daughter after such a class.  I'd be full of questions even if I trusted the trainer just out of curiosity =)

[Linda, Webber and Seda]

Go get em, Jennifer!  Give us an update.

[Lorraine Bromley]

It sounds like your 4H program had a great Idea and then hired the wrong trainer to facilitate the class. I would go right to the 4H leader and discuss what a great idea this is and how eager you are to have your daughter involved but that this type of training is against anything you have educated yourself with over the years and would rather have a positive based trainer possibly the clicker training technique. A technique that you find comfortable. Maybe even offer to find another trainer with a better attitude and a bit more of a 4H friendly attitude. I would not even start with this trainer. Others will follow.

[Maryann,Roo and Tigger]

I agree with Jane and Rooney - this is a no go just based on your anxiety and discomfort with the situation. 

I use prong collars, I think they are much kinder and easier to use properly than a choke chain.  I have heard of crating  before and after and no that it is commonly used by some trainers and dog handlers.  I learned to ride horses at an early age and the parents watched in a glass enclosed area, so they could see but not hear and comment.

However, from your description of how the first class was handled and your reaction I suspect the trainer is great with dogs and not so good with people.  A good trainer must be great with people and know a lot about dogs.  The people are actually the trainers students, not the dogs.  I would find someone else.

 

[Jennifer Tramell]

Well, I didn't chicken out - I emailed the extension agent.  I thanked him for his efforts in organizing & hosting this class but told him I was uncomfortable with the "No Parents" discussion.  I said that the arena is quite large and there are many places a parent can sit and discreetly observe without distracting the class.  No disrespect to the trainer but I didn't sign up for a "no parents" event for my 11 yr old and if my attendance was an issue, we would have to withdraw from the class.  I asked him to let me know how to proceed and again thanked him for his service to 4-H.

I am now waiting to hear his response.  We will see......

[Linda, Webber and Seda]

Well said.  Good for you!