PLEASE HELP!!! IMPORTANT QUESTION/ PROBLEM NEED ADVICE

[Kona]

Hi

I joined this forum yesterday as we are at a crossroads with our Aussie Labradoodle, Kona, 17 mos. Please bear with this long post but I want to give a full picture as I am seeking advice from anyone who has experienced anything similar...

We received Kona last Spring from Oregon.    He arrived after a looooong flight to NY that from start to finish covered a whole day.  I bring that up because I truly feel Kona was somehow traumatized by the flight as he was slow to warm up to people and a very skittish and aloof for a long while.  With lots of love and attention, he started to come into his own. We have three children that are very responsible with Kona and are old enough to know how to treat him.  Kona exhibited some troublesome traits beyond normal puppy behavior early on.  Believe it or not, our little Aussie labradoodle had traits of dominance/aggression.  He would stand up on high objects, growl and bite, way beyond playful biting, hump the younger children and refuse to be removed,  growl and bite when he was removed from situations etc.   He bit a few times to the point of drawing blood ( not a playful puppy nip) even though we tried all manner of bite inhibition, he showed signs of biting in anger (including a bite to my ndaughter's face).   We would immediately correct the behavior and sought the help of trainers, so the kids could learn how to properly deal with him at all times.  We also supervised the children with Kona and did not allow them to play any tug of war or roughousing type games that would feed the behavior.  A mutual friend of ours is friends with Brian Kilcommons (author Good Owners, Great Dogs) and Brian was kind enough to give us a phone consultation.  Brian was very troubled by Kona's behaviors, especially for his young age and strongly felt we should consider returning Kona to the breeder.  Well, at this point, we were already head over heels in love with Kona( despite his behavior) and really were incredulous as we had done extensive research on the breed and finding a good breeder asnd just did not want to accept that analysis.  We also thought that we as a family must somehow be to blame as Kona was so young and thought we just needed to train him better.  We also did not want to rely on a phone consultation for such a colassal decision so we called upon an expert that Brian had recommended to make an in person evaluation.  To make a long story a little shorter,  a trainer came in and observed our 12 week old Kona and did a variety of "tests" with him.  Some direct quotes from her report are as follows:  "Kona exhibited inappropriate levels of aggression for a puppy of his age in a variety of circumstances...Kona responds to normal life events with offensive aggression...Kona is presenting with forward and offensive aggression to a variety of normal life events."  She then went on to list three ares that troubled her most:  1, his forward and aggressive reaction to being removed...2. the fact that Kona growls and has bitten members of the household if approached in a variety of circumstances... and 3.  when assessing his resource guarding potential... he exhibited behaviors that typically precede biting.  She went on to conclude that "while at this stage Kona's behaviors are juvenile and lack the intensity to cause much harm, the fact the he has presented aggressive behavior at such a young age concerns me greatly.  Kona's assertive and aggressive behavior will increase in both severity and frequency as he ages...he should be returned to the breeder as soon as possible." 

After that evaluation, we contacted our breeder to voice our concerns.  Of course, she did not agree with the assessment and felt that he was fine and loving when he left her home so that we must be at fault in not extablishing his place in our pack, etc.  She was, however, willing to take him back but felt strongly that it could not possibly be the dog as this had never happened before, he was evaluated etc.   After a long conversation and some back and forth emails, we decided to really give it another try with Kona, hire a trainer who would work with the whole family and really give it our best shot as we did not want to give up on Kona.  ( on a side note, we were experienced dog owners who had never encountered such problems before)  Even though Kona had such a negative evaluation from the1st trainer, we felt that maybe she was somehow biased by Brian's opinion and rationalized that she couldn't possibly get to know the dog after a 1 day meeting... so we continued

 

We then had another trainer in who was also disturbed by his dominant/aggressive behavior but felt that with "hug therapy" (her words) and a bunch of other methods to get him used to being submissive (he would refuse to lie on his back or side), he was trainable. We didn't really gel with that trainer so we called upon another woman who has a great reputtion in our community.  (Yes at this point we were investing way too much $$ but we really did not want to give up)  This trainer was great.  She definitely was troubled by some of Kona's behaviors and said he was an alpha dog all the way but felt she could help our family work with him.   She aslo felt that he was under handled at the breeders (hotly contested) and over handled by us intially .   We had weekly sessions with her as well as daily homework.  Our whole family worked hard on implementing her training methods to oversome his undesirable behaviors.  After a lot of work, Kona sits on command, stays, waves, dances, rings a bell to go outside etc.  He still chooses to ignore commands but hey, he's a playful puppy...

Over time, we felt we had worked out a lot of his issues and Kona became our companion EVERYWHERE.  It started with a trip to North Carolina beaches last summer and continued to many more places including, parks, lakes, other vacations etc.  He is extremely well socialized and loves meeting new people.  He was still very dominant when meeting other dogs and very demanding of attn but we just felt that's his personality.

OK so now the tough part.  When Kona was about a year old this past winter he was on our bed one morning and my youngest daughter 7 went up to greet and pet him.  He was awake but still lying down and as she bent over to kiss him, he snapped and nipped her in the face. His tooth caught her eye and unfortunately scratched her cornea but he did not puncture any flesh on her face.  After of course dealing with her medical issue, we dealt with Kona.  We rationalized his behavior again, chiding our daughter for bothering him when he was lying down, for not heeding his warning of a snarl etc.  We also implemented a no bed rule and moved him to the floor as we did not want him to feel over confident, possessive etc.

Bite number 2 :  Kona loves to lie down on a doggie bed in the bathroom when family members are in the shower.  My 9 yr old boy was going to take a shower and saw Kona on his bed.  Because of Kona's facial hair, my son did not see that Kona had a bone/treat in his mouth.  My son  -- who by the way is the most gentle one in our whole family, who feels Kona's pain and gets upset when we even groom him -- bent down to give him a pet before he got in the shower and Kona let out a nasty growl and instantly snapped at Luke's hand.  He ripped the flesh off the top of his right finger, in a jagged line from knuckle to tip.  My son was inconsolable from shock and fear but once again, we rationalized and determined it was the bone/treat and decided we would not give him anymore bones as they were way too important to him.  We were shocked, by the way , as since he was tiny, we had always trained him to not guard his food and often removed his food, treat etc. to train him.  By the way, even if he something really good in his bowl, he is never possessive of his food ...

This brings us to last week:

Bite #3  Kona was on the couch on my husband's lap (groggy) and my 9 y.o.son again went in to pet him and he bit his finger, leaving 2 puncture wounds on his hand.

 

We are now more troubled b/c even though he knew he had done something bad, that same night he growled and beard his teeth at the same son when he entered our bedroom... He seems to in some ways be getting worse as he even growled yesterday when my teenage son went to remove a pencil he was chewing...

 

As I read this, I realize I must sound like an irresponsible parent but you must understand that these isolated incidents occurred over the past 1 and 1/2 years!! and that 99% of the time Kona is the most wonderful dog around.  He is smart, social, friendly and loving!  The children he has bit are the same children he adores.   He loves them to death and lies down on them while they are watching tv, greets them happily , crawls in and out of their legs for affection etc.  He is playful, joyful and happy 99% of the time.

 

That is why we are in such a quandry.  How does this marvelous, trained dog suddenly turn?  Is he safe to keep around or will I be kicking myseld if the next bite (God forbid) is worse...?  The kids once again blamed themselves and all three of them cried for the whole day and begged us not to get rid of him...to give him 1 more chance

ANY ADVICE?  It would be greatly appreciated...we would all be heartbroken but I do not want to jeopardized my children either...

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

and Red the Robin...don't forget him

[F, Calla & Luca]

Ah, but they didn't hurt the robin, just delivered it to me.

[Amanda and Quinn]

I have to agree - I think it's unlikely that this would contribute to such an intense, long-lasting issue. I have an acquaintance whose doodle puppy had a truly traumatic flight: the plane was delayed and whoever was supposed to care for the animals did not. By the time the owners picked up their puppy, she was unconscious and so dehydrated that the vet said she should have died. Once she recovered medically, there were no long term effects on her personality whatsoever.

[Janice Allocco-Ange]

Well I guess I'll never take my dogs on a plane! That is a horrible thing. I'm glad to hear she recovered with no ill effects.

[April Cliber]

Don't panic... Although that CAN and sadly does happen, it's not common. I have shipped many puppies across the country and have never had a problem. They usually come out of the crate with their tail wagging and happily greet their family. I always make sure they have plenty of food and water. I freeze the water overnight so that it will melt on the plane. This way I know they will have water throughout the flight.

We actually have a "Doodles with wings" group here on DK.

If you ever wanted to travel with your girls they are small enough to take in the cabin with you. :o)

[F, Calla & Luca]

I have nothing to add in terms of advice. I just am proud to be a member of a group that gives such good advice so generously and quickly. I also think it's wonderful that you have tried so diligently with this dog no matter what you decide in the end.

[ClarkP]

Wow, what a difficult thing for your family. I proud of you for continuing to pursue a good outcome for Kona.

Many have suggested medical reasons. (And yes, you SHOULD rule that out.) But I wouldn't place too much hope that medicine will solve this issue. It sounds like a dominance issue with a dog that is very pack-order oriented and very determined to guard his place in the pack. He has gotten away with it so far... and it has worked beautifully! He is still lord over the kids, right? Kona thinks what he is doing is working great! Us humans don't see it that way - Kona's behavior is completely unacceptable in your family.

This CAN be trained out of Kona. But probably you can't do it alone. Are you able to send Kona away to a Board-and-train trainer? I feel that would be the best way to address this. If you want to keep Kona and are willing to pursue that option, talk with my wife Adina. She has connections with excellent trainers that could do great things for Kona.

Keep up the fight! I know it's not easy but you are doing the right things.
-Clark

[cheryl & oliver]

Joanne, I don't have anything to add to what has been said already. I just wanted to say that whatever happens with Kona, you know that you have done everything possible to correct a situation that cannot be acceptable in your family life. If your vet finds something ( I hope he does and he can help Kona) that can be treated with meds, that would be wonderful, but if it is just that he is wired that way, you know that you cannot live in fear for the next bite to happen. My grandaughter (10 yrs. old) was bitten not long ago by a neighbors dog, and she needed 11 stitches in her back, and head and shoulders, she never saw the dog come up behind her, he attacked for no reason, The trauma she suffered was quite something needless to say. My son and his family have 2 dogs of their own, so she had always had dogs around her, and we have 2 dogs...She will have to have plastic surgery when she is a little older on her back and shoulders. She still loves her dogs, and she loves mine, she adores Oliver, even though he is a big dog. So I really feel that your children are missing out on all the fun and good times with a dog. They shouldn't have to fear that he will turn and bite, If it comes to the time that u have to give Kona up, it will hurt, and all of you will be upset, but you will know that you did everything right to help and love Kona. I do agree with everyone else that he might be better off in a home without children...Sry this is so long...Hugs to you, and I hope you will keep us informed...

[April Cliber]

We LOVE Victoria Stillwell!! The kids and I watch her all the time!

[Adina P]

I think this is an issue that is bigger than Victoria.

[Frances Pendrous (Horan)]

Oh dear...what a sad, bitter-sweet story. My heart, like all others on this wonderful web site truly goes out to you. That being said, and for all the wonderful advice I read, that was given to you, at the end of the day my dear, nothing is more important that your own children's safety and I fear that all your children are still so very young, they will never be truly safe around the wonderful Kona. As you can see, the dogs on this website are just as loved as our own children, but at the end of the day, as much as we love and adore them, they are dogs and as such our children should always come first. It sounds to me like there is no real reason as to why Kona is as he is, it is just that he really is not into kids....and therefore, as harsh as it sounds, and trust me, you and your hubby have gone way beyond what most would, it is time to find the lovely Kona a new home where he would be with adults. Nothing is more terrifying than owning a dog that is not trust worthy with kids. Up until now, it has only been your own children that he has "nipped" at but what if they have a friend over and Kona takes a "nip" out of them!!!!! Your families security and safety could be jeopardized and legal action would be taken. You sound like a wonderful, loving person and I am sure this decision is going to be so very hard, but for everyone's safety....it is time to start thinking with your head instead of your heart. Blessings to you and once again, I am so sorry as this is certainly a one-off issue where this precious doodles are concerned....

[Leigh & Allie]

My in-laws have a dog who have bitten someone EVERY time we have visited. Thankfully we normally meet at a restaurant for dinner so we only see Kacey about once a year. As a puppy he was very cute and kind. He is now about 2. He bit me the first time when he went outside and I was letting him in and was cleaning off his paws. He bit the crud out of my finger. I was told "He doesn't like his paws touched". Last year at Christmas he bit my son on the finger. Mark was just leaning down and petting him. This time he was "just startled". Both times he drew blood. I did notice my Mother in Law picking him up with a towel. I am assuming so he would not bite her. He was growling and biting at her. These two situations were a year apart but I don't believe you can downplay the incidents because they are far apart. She told me a story the other day about Kacey. She had given Kacey a treat she had bought at the dollar store. (Whole other story, I have tried to tell her to watch what and where she gets as treats) Anyway, Kacey got very sick. He had to be hospitalized for a few days. When she went to visit, she noticed a sign on his cage saying that he 'bites". She got very mad at the vet telling her to take the sign down that he does not bite. I, truly, do not understand this but I am thankful she does not have any children in her house. I am just not very excited to visit again and I am very concerned Kacey will bite my 2 year old niece. I just think you are living with a time bomb and Kona would be much better with a family with no children.