PLEASE HELP!!! IMPORTANT QUESTION/ PROBLEM NEED ADVICE

[Kona]

Hi

I joined this forum yesterday as we are at a crossroads with our Aussie Labradoodle, Kona, 17 mos. Please bear with this long post but I want to give a full picture as I am seeking advice from anyone who has experienced anything similar...

We received Kona last Spring from Oregon.    He arrived after a looooong flight to NY that from start to finish covered a whole day.  I bring that up because I truly feel Kona was somehow traumatized by the flight as he was slow to warm up to people and a very skittish and aloof for a long while.  With lots of love and attention, he started to come into his own. We have three children that are very responsible with Kona and are old enough to know how to treat him.  Kona exhibited some troublesome traits beyond normal puppy behavior early on.  Believe it or not, our little Aussie labradoodle had traits of dominance/aggression.  He would stand up on high objects, growl and bite, way beyond playful biting, hump the younger children and refuse to be removed,  growl and bite when he was removed from situations etc.   He bit a few times to the point of drawing blood ( not a playful puppy nip) even though we tried all manner of bite inhibition, he showed signs of biting in anger (including a bite to my ndaughter's face).   We would immediately correct the behavior and sought the help of trainers, so the kids could learn how to properly deal with him at all times.  We also supervised the children with Kona and did not allow them to play any tug of war or roughousing type games that would feed the behavior.  A mutual friend of ours is friends with Brian Kilcommons (author Good Owners, Great Dogs) and Brian was kind enough to give us a phone consultation.  Brian was very troubled by Kona's behaviors, especially for his young age and strongly felt we should consider returning Kona to the breeder.  Well, at this point, we were already head over heels in love with Kona( despite his behavior) and really were incredulous as we had done extensive research on the breed and finding a good breeder asnd just did not want to accept that analysis.  We also thought that we as a family must somehow be to blame as Kona was so young and thought we just needed to train him better.  We also did not want to rely on a phone consultation for such a colassal decision so we called upon an expert that Brian had recommended to make an in person evaluation.  To make a long story a little shorter,  a trainer came in and observed our 12 week old Kona and did a variety of "tests" with him.  Some direct quotes from her report are as follows:  "Kona exhibited inappropriate levels of aggression for a puppy of his age in a variety of circumstances...Kona responds to normal life events with offensive aggression...Kona is presenting with forward and offensive aggression to a variety of normal life events."  She then went on to list three ares that troubled her most:  1, his forward and aggressive reaction to being removed...2. the fact that Kona growls and has bitten members of the household if approached in a variety of circumstances... and 3.  when assessing his resource guarding potential... he exhibited behaviors that typically precede biting.  She went on to conclude that "while at this stage Kona's behaviors are juvenile and lack the intensity to cause much harm, the fact the he has presented aggressive behavior at such a young age concerns me greatly.  Kona's assertive and aggressive behavior will increase in both severity and frequency as he ages...he should be returned to the breeder as soon as possible." 

After that evaluation, we contacted our breeder to voice our concerns.  Of course, she did not agree with the assessment and felt that he was fine and loving when he left her home so that we must be at fault in not extablishing his place in our pack, etc.  She was, however, willing to take him back but felt strongly that it could not possibly be the dog as this had never happened before, he was evaluated etc.   After a long conversation and some back and forth emails, we decided to really give it another try with Kona, hire a trainer who would work with the whole family and really give it our best shot as we did not want to give up on Kona.  ( on a side note, we were experienced dog owners who had never encountered such problems before)  Even though Kona had such a negative evaluation from the1st trainer, we felt that maybe she was somehow biased by Brian's opinion and rationalized that she couldn't possibly get to know the dog after a 1 day meeting... so we continued

 

We then had another trainer in who was also disturbed by his dominant/aggressive behavior but felt that with "hug therapy" (her words) and a bunch of other methods to get him used to being submissive (he would refuse to lie on his back or side), he was trainable. We didn't really gel with that trainer so we called upon another woman who has a great reputtion in our community.  (Yes at this point we were investing way too much $$ but we really did not want to give up)  This trainer was great.  She definitely was troubled by some of Kona's behaviors and said he was an alpha dog all the way but felt she could help our family work with him.   She aslo felt that he was under handled at the breeders (hotly contested) and over handled by us intially .   We had weekly sessions with her as well as daily homework.  Our whole family worked hard on implementing her training methods to oversome his undesirable behaviors.  After a lot of work, Kona sits on command, stays, waves, dances, rings a bell to go outside etc.  He still chooses to ignore commands but hey, he's a playful puppy...

Over time, we felt we had worked out a lot of his issues and Kona became our companion EVERYWHERE.  It started with a trip to North Carolina beaches last summer and continued to many more places including, parks, lakes, other vacations etc.  He is extremely well socialized and loves meeting new people.  He was still very dominant when meeting other dogs and very demanding of attn but we just felt that's his personality.

OK so now the tough part.  When Kona was about a year old this past winter he was on our bed one morning and my youngest daughter 7 went up to greet and pet him.  He was awake but still lying down and as she bent over to kiss him, he snapped and nipped her in the face. His tooth caught her eye and unfortunately scratched her cornea but he did not puncture any flesh on her face.  After of course dealing with her medical issue, we dealt with Kona.  We rationalized his behavior again, chiding our daughter for bothering him when he was lying down, for not heeding his warning of a snarl etc.  We also implemented a no bed rule and moved him to the floor as we did not want him to feel over confident, possessive etc.

Bite number 2 :  Kona loves to lie down on a doggie bed in the bathroom when family members are in the shower.  My 9 yr old boy was going to take a shower and saw Kona on his bed.  Because of Kona's facial hair, my son did not see that Kona had a bone/treat in his mouth.  My son  -- who by the way is the most gentle one in our whole family, who feels Kona's pain and gets upset when we even groom him -- bent down to give him a pet before he got in the shower and Kona let out a nasty growl and instantly snapped at Luke's hand.  He ripped the flesh off the top of his right finger, in a jagged line from knuckle to tip.  My son was inconsolable from shock and fear but once again, we rationalized and determined it was the bone/treat and decided we would not give him anymore bones as they were way too important to him.  We were shocked, by the way , as since he was tiny, we had always trained him to not guard his food and often removed his food, treat etc. to train him.  By the way, even if he something really good in his bowl, he is never possessive of his food ...

This brings us to last week:

Bite #3  Kona was on the couch on my husband's lap (groggy) and my 9 y.o.son again went in to pet him and he bit his finger, leaving 2 puncture wounds on his hand.

 

We are now more troubled b/c even though he knew he had done something bad, that same night he growled and beard his teeth at the same son when he entered our bedroom... He seems to in some ways be getting worse as he even growled yesterday when my teenage son went to remove a pencil he was chewing...

 

As I read this, I realize I must sound like an irresponsible parent but you must understand that these isolated incidents occurred over the past 1 and 1/2 years!! and that 99% of the time Kona is the most wonderful dog around.  He is smart, social, friendly and loving!  The children he has bit are the same children he adores.   He loves them to death and lies down on them while they are watching tv, greets them happily , crawls in and out of their legs for affection etc.  He is playful, joyful and happy 99% of the time.

 

That is why we are in such a quandry.  How does this marvelous, trained dog suddenly turn?  Is he safe to keep around or will I be kicking myseld if the next bite (God forbid) is worse...?  The kids once again blamed themselves and all three of them cried for the whole day and begged us not to get rid of him...to give him 1 more chance

ANY ADVICE?  It would be greatly appreciated...we would all be heartbroken but I do not want to jeopardized my children either...

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

Well said Lucy and Sophie's Mom. Kudos to this dog owner who places a lot of effort into helping her dog and her family and seeks out more help.

Kona's Mom: Please let us know what happens at the Vets. We all learn from others.

Best Wishes to you all.

[Leslie and Halas]

I don't have any suggestions, but you've gotten some good advice here. Maybe a vet or a behaviorist can find some answers for you. I'm sorry that you, your family, and Kona are going through this. I hope everything works out for you.

[shelly]

Oh Boy, Maria! I feel for you and your family. Tori has not gotten to the extreme that you mentioned, but she did bear her teeth and bit twice. BOTH times drawing blood. It's scary, and extremely upsetting. It's hard NOT to take it personally. But YOU have done absolutely nothing wrong! In fact you have gone above and beyond what most dog owners would do. When Tori bit, I too tried to make excuses - she was under a table and a bed and we tried to retrieve something from her that she grabbed. As my DH said - "She's a dog", that's what dogs do... but I have had dogs all my life, and NEVER had one that tried to confront me..(although when we were young, my father used to hit the dogs - NOTHING I would ever do no matter what!). I wanted to open the door and let her go, but one look at my kids and the ache in my heart stopped me...We went back to step one and established dominance - which is what you have already done. No one can truly tell you what to do - but yourself. YOU know the time, effort and MONEY you have invested in Kona - who truly sounds like one of the family. Perhaps stepping back and looking in at your life as it is now...if this was your sister or brother or friend and their families, what would you suggest? I'm sure the kids' feelings are weighing heavy on your heart and final decision. They seem old enough to understand the 'problems' with Kona, yet they are still way too young to comprehend them (even the teen - as my 16 year old cried just as much as my 12 year old the day I was so upset). I hope the vet can find something medically bothering Kona that can easily be fixed, or one last professional that may be able to help. Whatever you decide, no one can fault you! You are a dog's dream - a caring loving owner who thinks of their pet as a member of the family! Either way - you will get the support, help or shoulder to cry on that you need right here! Best of luck! {{{{{hugs}}}}}

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

I am going to be the naysayer here. I can tell you love Kona and I can tell that you have put lots and lots of time, effort and money into solving this serious problem. I do think you should follow up with the physical part, but if everything comes back normal then I say it is time to stop beating yourself up and return Kona to the breeder or surrender him to the DRC.
Dogs are a lot of work but they are supposed to bring a lot of pleasure also. Always having to be on guard, always worrying when the next 'attack' will come, is no way to have a pet in your family. You will not be a failure if you give up on Kona. It will be sad, it will be like a death in the family to return him and you will feel that you should have done 'just one more thing' but I say enough is enough. You can 'one more thing' yourself forever and still have to worry about serious injuries. My take is that you will eventually have to keep Kona away from people, including your children - and that was not your plan and it wouldn't be mine. Get another pup and enjoy it and let your children enjoy it. They are NOT enjoying this experience.

[Linda, Webber and Seda]

I agree with Nancy. I would copy all the evaluations you have on Kona, and the vet check that includes the thyroid if it is negative, and send all of it to the breeder with a request that she take Kona back. You have gone above and beyond and I think you cannot risk a disfiguring bite to the face of a child. We can't send our children back, but you can decide to have another dog. I wish you the best of luck making this decision. This sounds like a hard wiring problem. Maryann's suggestions for the immediate situation are excellent for all concerned.

[shelly]

I haven't stopped thinking of you and this situation. And I will have to agree with Nancy and Linda... if it is NOT a medical issue, then perhaps you should consider giving him back.... a scar on the face of one of your children will be something that will remind you forever about this situation... returning Kona will be hard, but the love you so badly want to give to a dog can be given to another puppy that can be a forever member of your family. In time the hurt will fade, easier than a wounded child. Again - good luck!

[Pat & "Tucker"]

I agree also. If everything checks out physically, it's time to return him before someone gets hurt. I had a similar situation with a mixed breed years ago. With not much knowledge of dogs then, I thought this may be normal. When I took the puppy to the vet the puppy maybe 12 weeks or so snarled and snapped at the vet and he had to use a muzzle. This puppy was mean. He was doing the same thing to us yet at times he was good as gold. The vet said he was the meanest puppy he ever came across and thought I should return him.The vet offered to call himself and the owner of the store was not very nice ( another clue). I did return and got the money back. Of courese, it was not easy but like you, I was afraid of what would happen especially as the dog got older. Kudos to you for trying all that you did to make it work, This is just not normal puppy behavior. You could struggle along and try more training but WHAT IF. We did get another puppy from a breeder soon after and the family was pleasantly suprised at how different the new one was......... and with time everyone was fine. We only had that puppy a few weeks.

[shelly]

I have that name and ad for you... can you send me your e-mail privately? You can go to my profile page. I can forward it to you...

[shelly]

Okay... I'm sure you're delving into responses.... here's the New York Dog Whisperer's e-mail.... he is on our vets website. They recommend him and use him at their office for training... worth a try... I do have his phone number, but still looking for it...
eliteanimaltrainers.com

[Maryann,Roo and Tigger]

Definitely email or mail what you wrote above to the vet, call the vet and alert him or her to the situation, so you get plenty of consultation time. If you do not get plenty of time and suggestions of blood work, try another vet. This may seem extreme, but I am so worried and sad for you and your family's experiences that I am truly worried that you may have to give up Kona to protect your children. When a family has put so much love and time into a dog it will be truly a horrible decision to give him up. So you want to make sure you pursue the health issue to your satisfaction.

All that said here are a few practical immediate suggestions, although none of them are ideal they allow you to keep Kona and protect your children for the time it takes to work with the vet. I apologize in advance for these, but your situation is so difficult.
1) Muzzle Kona at all times 2) Kona eats only in one place, no carrying around anything that could be guarded.

Honestly, none of you should feel quilty at all. You have gone above and beyond in love, loyalty, training, everything. Some dogs, like some people, are hard-wired diffferently.

On another note - when I was 3 ( a long time ago and I still remember it clearly) my family had to rehome an Irish Setter that even my dad could not train to be safe around me and my dad had animal magic. I was too young to be as attached as your children are, but even at my age I clearly remember begging to keep Sunny. Finally my dad took me with him to Sunny's new home in the country with an older man and his wife and lots of room. That in my memory seemed to make me feel better.

I will be praying for you that it turns out to be something easy like a goofy thyroid. Medicine will fix that and it can cause a dog to act strangely.

If you do have to give Kona up, it is okay. Grieve for a little and get another puppy to fill the hole in all your hearts. I know that it sounds hard, but it also works wonders to have a new puppy around to love.

HUGS, prayers and luck to you all. No more guilt for anyone.

[Janice Allocco-Ange]

You are in a very difficult situation and I have to commend you for all your efforts. Kona is very lucky to have you (even though he doesn't know it!). Unfortunately the answer to this dilemma is not an easy one. I wish I had an answer for you. You had mentioned at the beginning of your post that Kona's flight to you took an entire day and you felt he was traumatized by this. Has anyone ever given you any feedback on this as a possible cause for the aggression he's shown? I am curious about how dogs fair on plane flights. Maybe I'll start a discussion on this topic.

[F, Calla & Luca]

Both my dogs had long flights to me and no problems resulted. Neither one ever even growls at me no matter what the situation. They have never been aggressive to anyone or even other animals if you don't count the squirrel.