To breeders in regards to ESN

[Dianne Carter ~ Trinity Doodles]

We all get have encountered concerns over the practice of this by potential puppy families. Rather than post in the breeder group, I wanted to post where anyone could view your responses and how you address these concerns. Let us keep this to fact not feeling if we could please. What do you want everyone to know about why you choose this in your program? Please share what you advise those who are apprehensive about it and feel free to link to studies supporting this. Many thanks for taking a moment to help raise awareness!

[Jacquie Yorke (DRC)]

I'll pose the same question here in the breeders discussion.....Ann and Dianne....have you heard of the position taken that early spay/neuter results in dogs being LARGER in adulthood than if they were spayed/neutered after 6 months of age?.....The explanation being that it takes the introduction of sex hormones at around 4-5 months to naturally slow bone growth and when the hormones are never produced as is the case with early spay/neuter the bones continue to grow resulting in taller and longer adults?

[Jacquie Yorke (DRC)]

"Castration is known to delay growth plate closure in the male as early neutering removes sex hormones, delays maturation of “osteoclasts” resulting in delayed closing of the growth plates of the long leg bones thereby increasing bone growth. This also inceases the risk of numerous orthopaedic disorders such as cruciate ligament disease and possibly bone cancer."

[Dianne Carter ~ Trinity Doodles]

Hey Jacquie ~ From what I have read on this and please know I do not place myself out here as an expert, this study is largely suggestive and does not have the benefit of being a controlled study. Much of this research has been in large breeds, in particular one on Rottweilers where in the information gathered was done so largely in ESN compared to unaltered dogs rather than those that were altered at a later age.

Again also from the previous link, here is the link to an interesting article that I imagine you may have already seen, but for the benefit of those who may be unaware ~ http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Documents/PedRebuttal%20.pdf

[Jacquie Yorke (DRC)]

Thanks so much Diane!...I had not seen that specific paper......You never cease to amaze me with your knowledge! I so appreciate the link..I'm in the process of reading it...Give me some time to absorb and I will absolutely comment back....

[Dianne Carter ~ Trinity Doodles]

Hi Jacquie, I can try to address that. Yes I have heard of it, most recently in opposition to pediatric mandatory spay/neuter in my state. More on that later because I think you would find some of what I am looking at and contemplating interesting and I would value your input. Of course this is just one opinion but here:

Comment, from Weimaraner Rescue
We also prefer that they are developed hormonally and structurally to their best advantage.

Response from Dr Tracy Land
Hormones? Makes no sense. A weim spayed at six months is not "hormonally" mature either, so what's the difference? We're currently collecting mature ovaries for research into an injectable method of sterilization for dogs at Auburn. They don't want us to collect six month old ovaries, as they don't yet contain the hormones needed for their research. So there really is no valid issue there.
Structurally - Dogs sterilized early will have slightly delayed closure of the growth plates, and therefore be a fraction of an inch taller than those sterilized later. Who cares? I do think this is a valid point for dogs being shown at conformation, as they will not develop quite the same extent of secondary sex characteristics - such as breadth of chest or head. But, the average pet over can't tell that difference, show dogs can't be sterilized anyway unless someone's cheating, and there is little or no difference between those spayed at six months or three. So again, logically not a valid issue there.

This is from http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/PedSpayNeuter.htm. I have many more links but honestly I am looking for input from others too. This quest is two fold ~ not only for information gathering for owners and potential owners but also for myself in a large undertaking in trying to unite responsible breeders, shelters & rescues and other professionals as we continue to see such bills implying juvenille MSN suggested as the holy grail to end all over crowded shelters. Ultimately I think we all have the same end goal and if we begin to focus on what we have in common and possible alternatives and potential issues with the currently proposed legislation and how it may actually make the problem worse I think what we can accomplish will be utterly amazing. Though challenging to say the least as those who do want this needless tragedy to end have been cheering for different teams on the opposite ends of the field for a very long time. On this topic I will definitely be seeking some further consultation from you as well as Karen and Lynn.

[Adina P]

I've heard this too, but what I remember was that the difference was very small...growth that would not be perceptible to the naked eye.

[Jacquie Yorke (DRC)]

I heard that too initially but there are such varied opinions ......I'll have to try and find a few examples in the literature that I am familiar with.....I first heard of this issue through my mother who was a Lab breeder for years and she always insisted that her pet quality male pups not be neutered til after the age of six months for this reason.... she had it in her adoption contracts.....In reality she would have even let it go til they were a year...Her experience had been that early neutering of males effected their conformation..not that it was so much of an issue with pet quality pups but she felt that they ended up looking "gangly" and as if their legs were too long for their bodies....She also felt that it prevented them from completely filling out in the chest area which usually starts at around 2 years of age for the males....I'll let you know what I find....

[Adina P]

LOL I prefer the gangly look...my perfect lab would be one that had a doodle's physique! So not very standard. A breeder once had an F1b that looked almost completely lab except for lankier (rather than stocky)...LOVED IT!

[Jacquie Yorke (DRC)]

LOL..many people do!....but it's not the "standard" for English bred Labs...They are supposed to be "blocky"...."Stocky" ......slightly longer in the body than they are tall...The American bred Labs are lankier and snipey in the face......I prefer the blocky, stocky Labs myself.....

[Adina P]

I think it goes back to my original preference in dogs: GSPs, Weimaraners, boxers..lean lanky athletic doggies!

[Jacquie Yorke (DRC)]

Ann you are one of the smartest most well read women that I know!...and I adore you....: )

[Maryann,Roo and Tigger]

From my point of view ( and here I disagree with my vet) I think the advantages that Ann Bankert stated far outweigh the negatives. If the dog were a giant breed like Great Dane, I might feel a little differently. If I were a breeder I would want to be sure no puppies on down the line were not well taken care of and placed in forever homes. One of my ALDs was not mine until he was neutered at six months ( breeder split the expense) because he had an undescended testicle. Only when I provided proof of neutering at six months did I receive ownership of him. That is a responsible breeder in my opinion.