What if your dog didn't come from a rebutable breeder

[Jane Smith]

Apparently when I got my girls (a year apart) I didn't know much about breeders, or what questions to ask, if any.  I am now thinking that I got my girls from puppy mills, and I just feel sick.  I mean I love them, and they are healthy, but to think I contributed to that makes me sick.

 

The reason I suspect this, is I e-mailed the guy that set it up (both dogs were flown in from different states), and told him that I had someone that was interested in a dog from Ethel's breeder, and if he could get me the name of the breeder.  I have not gotten a response and this was a few days ago.  When I told the interested party that I believed I went through a breeder broker type thing, she informed me that it definitely was a puppy mill then and not a rebutable breeder.   Yikes! 

[Becka]

Karen, you might not be able to imagine it, but it happens, and I still consider myself a responsible pet owner who has the best puppy in the world--her temperament and intelligence (let's pretend I didn't just catch her chewing on my cell phone) tell me that something went right with her breeding and her early socialization. But my breeder met me part way (though it was still a two-day trip for me) and I considered it courteous and never suspected that they were trying to keep me from seeing their facility, nor do I think I was prioritizing "convenience" over my puppy's well-being. If I wanted a life of convenience I would not have a dog. Perhaps I am naive about this, but I corresponded with these people for weeks and they were very open about everything. 

 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

There was an infamous puppy mill called Almost Heaven where some of the DK members got their dogs. To look at the man's website, you would really have thought it was a beuatiful wonderful place, and that the man loved the dogs. Thousands of people spoke to him personally and were convinced of his sincerity. He was a charismatic person with a gift for gab and  could convince anyone of anything. Google Skip Eckhart or Almost heaven to see the horror that was hidden behind this man's caring personable manner.

Some of the people who were fooled by Skip are dear friends, who are certainly responsible pet owners. Falling for a scam doesn't make you a bad pet owner.

As for something going right with the breeding, my Jack is the best, sweetest, calmest, most beautiful, most wonderful dog in the world...and he came from a puppy mill.

The point is that neither any owner nor any dog is being criticized here, and people need to stop taking this information about puppy mills and how to choose a breeder personally. It isn't about you or your dog, it's about educating the general public on how to avoid supporting puppy mills. Yes, there are tiny exceptions to every rule, but if we can't establish some general guidelines, then what should we do? Tell everyone, it doesn't matter where you get your dog or from whom, use your own intuition?

There are certain facts that are true about these situations 99% of the time; now, if you're gambling, 99 to 1 odds are pretty good. Some people may want to go with that 1%, but I wouldn't advise them to do so, would you?

[Adina P]

I think Karen's clarification points are important.  There are exceptions to the rules, but her goal is to remind others of general guidelines and what to watch out for and reasons to avoid certain types of 'breeders' with red flags that indicate they are likely not reputable to possibly a puppy mill.  Sometimes great dogs come from mills...doesnt make their breeding one that was carefully planned or well done.  Some dogs get lucky genes.  My Rosco (not a mill dog) probably could have had zero socialization and still been awesome.  He just has a really stable temperament and not at all shy or aggressive.  Nobody is trying to make anyone else feel guilty or bad.  

[Becka]

I understand your point, Adina. However, I think that this discussion is an excellent illustration of how very difficult it is not to take something so emotional personally. I realize that this is not "about me," but I can't help but feel criticized when I read statements like "Having a dog is not convenient, and getting one shouldn't be, either." To me that sounds like blanket condemnation.

 

Like any kind of parenting, being a responsible dog owner means that we often feel like we're doing something wrong and not giving our pets every possible advantage in life (or maybe that's just my cultural heritage of guilt speaking). That means that when other owners do something differently than we do, we find ourselves feeling attacked or defensive. I apologize if that is what happened to me here. I know that nobody doubts that I want the very best for my dog.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The statement you quote was made in response to a breeder's comment and not to a purchaser, and was not set out as a blanket anything. If everyone took  comments out of context and applied them to themselves, I don't think we would have anything but hurt feelings here. More importantly, nobody would be able to express an opinion at all. Unless a comment is addressed directly to you, it should not be taken personally.

Becka, think about what you have said here:

 " when other owners do something differently than we do, we find ourselves feeling attacked or defensive"

You don't really mean that, I know. Everyone does things differently from everyone else. If someone says, "I feed X" and you feed Y, you don't feel attacked, do you? If someone says, I use a "Gentle Leader harness" and you use a regular leash, you don't feel attacked.

Nobody doubts that you want the very best for your dog. Nobody doubts that anyone here wants the very best for their dogs. It isn't about the diogs who are already loved, it's about the ones who aren't purchased yet. It's about education. If I were giving my dog something that might harm him, and someone told me that, I would be grateful; I certainly wouldn't feel they were criticizing me. Nobody is here to criticize anyone, we are all trying to be helpful to both future owners and dogs.

[F, Calla & Luca]

Good points!

[Becka]

I meant what I wrote--you need to read the first part of the statement and realize that what I'm saying is that I take responsibility for feeling defensive--it's easy to feel attacked and defensive when we already feel like we might not be doing enough. So yes, I do mean it. And I am the only one responsible for my feelings.

 

I really appreciate what Cindy says below. Thanks, Cindy.

[Cindy M, Zachary & the Frenchies]

I have been following this thread and feel compelled to write. Since I have joined doodle kisses, a few threads have popped up with very harsh language that is allmost bullying in nature, suggesting that only one approach is correct and that any other approach is not in the best interest of the dog or implies improper pet parenting. Then, when people react they are told it is educational an not directed at them.

First, there are many approaches to most situations. From training to to how and where you feed your dog and how you came to be the steward of your dog.

We educate adults by providing them actual  facts and resouces to better educate themselves in a safe environment, not through scare tactics and bullying. Although it is always fun to hear about Vern and Fudge and the new puppy arrivals, I am not sure that DK feels safe for some people as they try to find support and information for difficult decisions.

Vilifying people and using broad bush strokes to paint people and practices that don't adhere to an individual perception of how things should occur is disturbing. The most recent example of breeders accomodating owners is an example.  Some breeders open their house up to visitors, others are concerned about parvo and security (they have thousands of dollars worth of puppys and dogs and their family living in their home) and have very limited visitng policies. Some require pick-up, others will accomodate owners who want the best breeder they can find, not necessarily the local one and meet them part way, some ship (not my preferance, but something many owners have done successfully).

My story so it is clear that I have made many mistakes and come to opinions from experience and trial and error. I have had  several dogs in my life - I am a multiple dog owner. Some have come from well intentioned back yard breeders before I new better. Some were AKC dogsfrom championed parents. I have had dogs from the shelter, and rehomes.

I have  over  the years fed my dogs Pedigree, better pet store brands, high end premium, brands and now feed raw. I would really recommend raw to anyone who has fussy eaters or is struggling with poop - but it is a personal decision - so anyone considering it should do their research.

 

I use positive training methods -  no chokes, no prongs - no Ceaser - I don't join in on those training discussions other than to occasionally discuss alternatives because people are allowed to chose a training philosophy that fits their needs although sometimes discussion of what I consider "harsh training" upsets me. I do find that most people who talk about training talk about what they do with their dogs and suggest that folks find a trainer or give advice when asked but don't evangalize.

 

Most importantly, and relevant to the current discussion, my dog came from a reputable and well respected breeder (I won't mention her here because of DK rules). I flew  from NM to CA to get him and the breeder rented a hotel room and brought him to the airport area. I was then able to spend my 4 hour layover getting to know my puppy before our flight back and talking with the breeder about his routine and my plans for him. By the time we left for the flight back he was comfortable with me, the breeder and I had spent several hours together (in adition to the time we had spent on the phone and on e-mail) and Zach had time to get used to his underseat carrier. If I had gone to her ranch to pick him up all my time would have been spent in the car. Poor car sick Zack would have had to make a 1.5 hour car trip and then get right onto an airplane with a stranger. She is not 1 out of 99. She is an example of a reputable breeder who is thinking of the best interest of her puppy and the new owner.

 

I think we can learn from each other and from each other's experiences but  everyone needs to feel safe to share those experiences.

[Jaime and Barley Barker]

I wish there was a like button. I took the statement to the breeder about meeting in a parking lot as a bit of a broad stroke attack on her, especially since the breeder had explained her practice of doing so. I had read the breeder's comment to mean that she opens her home for visitors, but for some purchasers it's more convenient to meet elsewhere. Also, my mother got a goldendoodle from a breeder. She was able to visit Daisy when Daisy was about 6 or 7 weeks old; however, this breeder refused to allow ANY visitors until all of the puppies had gotten started on their vaccinations and lost some potential purchasers because of that. She was very careful about who visited and when because she ended up losing the entire previous litter of puppies to parvo, passed to the puppies by a visitor.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

There is a big difference between meeting at a hotel or a 4-hour layover at an airport and meeting in a parking lot. There is also a big difference between having the option to come to the breeder's home, as was the case with the breeder to whom I replied, and not having that option.

We have many reputable and responsible breeder members here on DK who have addressed the issue of people bringing parvo and other diseases in; they have all managed to find ways aroiund that.

Again, we are talking about odds here. The fact of the matter is that a breeder who will not allow a purchaser to set foot on the property is most likely hiding something. We are trying to give people guidelines of what to look for in a breeder, not castigate people who have already purchased one. If we say "the dog in the pet store might be from a good breeder", or "the breeder who meets you in the Walmart parking lot and doesn't want you to see her property might be a good breeder", we are making it easier for all the people who are not good breeders to continue duping people. More importantly, we are not helping inexperienced people looking for a dog to have a guideline.

As far as bullying and harsh language, I have not noticed that here in this discussion. Everything that has been said seems quite civil to me. But I guess it is possible to find insult where none is intended, if you look for it.

There was once a statement made here in a discussion on DK that I could have taken very personally. It was in a discussion about why someone should not  adopt an adult dog from a shelter. The exact statement was "There's a reason they're in the pound."

Now considering the fact that I adopted my labradoodle from a shelter, and considering the fact that the statement was in fact saying that a dog who is in a shelter is there because there's something wrong with him, I should have been very hurt by that and taken it personally. I was hurt by it, on behalf of all the wonderful dogs who end up in shelters for no fault of their own. But I choose to think that it's an ignorant statement made by an ignorant person, and not an attack on my dog. And in fact, I'm sure the person who made this statement did not intend to insult or hurt anyone.

We can't control what other people think, or say, or the way they say it, but we can choose to look upon it as well-meant and not take it personally. I personally believe that very few people make any kind of statement here or give any kind of advice with the intention of criticizing or attacking anyone.

I would also like to invite anyone who has a problem with anything I have said here to join me in volunteering for a doodle rescue organization and experience the horror stories that I see on a daily basis, all related to the subjects in this discussion. If the cost of preventing just one dog from going through what dozens of doodles in rescue are at this moment experiencing is someone being hurt by imperosnal statements in a discussion on a forum, that's a pretty small price.  

[Jaime and Barley Barker]

There is educating, and then there is criticism that comes across as personal. I think it's important to fully read someone's comment and to avoid the making of blanket statements that don't apply to the other writer's situation, as in the breeder who (gasp!) meets people in a parking lot because it's more convenient for the purchaser. Even if not meant to be, the tone can be miscontrued as harsh and/or self-righteous. Sure, people need to be less sensitive and not assume everything is a barbed arrow aimed at them. However, we also need to be sensitive in our responses to others and not chide people if they are hurt, even if unintentionally. It's a problem with message boards/emails/texting:  you miss out on other communicators such as expression and body language. So, I think it's important to read back our posts to ourselves and ask, "Is it helpful? Is it kind? Could it be miscontrued?"  I don't think there's been a problem with WHAT has been said here, but rather with HOW it's been said.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I applaud you for having the courage to post this discussion. So many people are in denial or become defensive when they are told their dogs have come from a puppy mill. The only way to put an end to puppy mills is for people to speak up about it and help educate others, as you are doing. 

And I admire your statement that having contributed to that makes you sick. This is the main, and in fact, the only point. When people speak out against buying from brokers, mills, and pet stores, it is not a criticism or judgment of anyone's dogs; I have a puppy mill dog, and he is the light of my life. The criticism is against the system of abuse that produced these dogs, not the dogs themselves.

If I put 20 cages in my garage and breed puppies, I can be called a "breeder". So many people say they got their dogs from "breeders" when in fact they ordered them from internet puppy mills and broker websites, or they purchased them from pet stores where the salesman told them the puppies are from breeders. As long as people remain in denial about the true circumstances, and refuse to open their eyes to the true source of these dogs, the people who run these mills will continue to thrive, with the support of people who claim to love dogs.

Thank you, Jane, for being part of the solution. Hugs to you and your girls.