Obedience class not going so well :(

[Kerri B. & Zoey]

Little upset, but I know this is the place to come and vent, cry, receive some understanding, but also receive some tough love.  So we have been going to obedience class for about 3 weeks now.  The first class Zoey did great...paid attention, was getting "sit" right off the bat, she was a little rockstar.  Week 2 we did not fare as well.  There was a week off in between the 1st & 2nd class and it actually was a blessing, because I woke up that Monday morning & threw my back out & was laid up most of the week. A blessing, because we did not have to miss a lesson, but bad in that I probably did not do enough homework with her (it was tough enough just getting myself around and she actually wound up spending a good amount of that week with my parents).  The 2nd class went ok at first.  We worked on sits again and she did well and then began downs.  This was not as successful and she struggled to pay attention, and I struggled to keep her engaged.  After the class I stayed and spoke one on one with the instructor, more about her jumping & biting issues.  We went home and have worked a little over the week, but I know not as much as I should be (this is where the tough love comes in...I know I have to do the work to get the results).  So tonight was the 3rd class.  Since I am at work all day my parents meet me at the class with her, so it's the first chance I have to see her since the am when I leave.  She goes bonkers when she sees me, then gets excited to see all the other dogs and people.  Finally get her to settle down and class begins.  The whole time she is distracted, obstinate, pulling on the leash, jumping...I swear, I felt like I was sticking out...in a bad way.  The instructor had us working on sits and downs and was coming around to us individually.  When he got to me everything fell apart and he basically told me needed to work the sit & get that under control before working on the down.  This kinda pissed me off, cause the dog knows sit...she knew this before we started the class.  Later he had us go to another area and practice walking them with a loose lead and then working on the "wait" command.  By this point Zoey was over it, but I was able to get her to work the "wait" and she actually did pretty good.  Then at the end of class he asked me to stay after.  He is suggesting to me that I need to get a prong correctional collar and bring this to the next class.  This upsets me.  I really don't want to go this route with her and am not confident in my ability to use it right (event though he is telling me he will show me).  I left the class almost in tears about this.  I am not happy of the thought of having to use a prong collar.  Just curious to know what some of you think.  Anyone have experience with these?  Anyone think with enough practice/homework I can avoid it?  I know I need to put more time in with her, so I except my responsibility in that respect.  Just wondering if there is a way to avoid going to this extreme.  Sorry to ramble & rant, but thanks for reading.

[Carla, Lucca and Izzy]

Kerri, rambling and venting is why we're all here. It's also for support. It sounds like you have quite a bit on your plate as well as a puppy:) It also sounds to me like she is sooo excited to see you she is having a hard time focusing. I'm wondering if the timing is off for her. Is there any way you can do a Saturday class? This way she would be calmer and more focused on the training.

As to prong collars....they're fine if used properly. I know there was a discussion about them just recently. I use one on Izzy just for walking because she has a hard time focusing and she is a strong puller even though she only weighs 45 lbs. I don't remember how old Zoey is but if she just started classes she is still young. In this situation I don't think (IMO) that the prong is the best choice. It takes a lot of patience, love and consistency on your part. But also give her time- she's ababy. She'll figure it out. I hope this helped...a little:) Good luck

OK..I forgot Zoey is from ABD and Casey is the dad.....lots of energy..yup...that's Izzy too!!!!! She's a year now and tons calmer!!!!! It does get better.

[Kay Bolin]

Hi Kerri,

Sounds like this is not a very good time for your puppy to have class.  You might want to look into some positive method for training where puppies are rewarded for good behavior rather than punished for poor behavior.  We have used clicker training which I think is pretty available in most locations, and an on-line group called SATZ ([e-mail]).  If you read about the SATZ group and are interested let me know and I'll give you some advice on getting started with them.  Good luck to you and Zoey.

[Sandra Griffith]

First, please remember that Zoey is a puppy and just like human children their attention span is not always long and they have their good days and their bad days.  The next thing to remember is that you are working in a high distraction area when you attend class.  Zoey has you, other dogs, exciting smells, new people, in addition to other new adventures.  Lastly, she may not have had much exercise to get the puppy energy out of her whilst you are at work.  Try to think of this class as a chance to socialize your little girl in new environments and have patience.  She is young and you must think of training as needing baby steps.  Dogs do not generalize behaviours well so what they may do well (such as sit) at home may not translate as something that they know whilst at obedience class in a totally foreign environment.  So...think of this as something that may appear be a new behaviour to Zoey (ie. sit in this new place).

 

I have been training dogs for over 35 years professionally and am what many would call a cross-over trainer.  This means that I started learning the craft of training using choke collars but after returning to school to do graduate work in animal behaviour and learning have made the decision to change my methods and do not use tools like electronic collars (e-collars), choke collars, or prong collars.  I have worked with dogs with aggression issues in addition to normal excitable puppies that sound just like Zoey.  With patience I have not had a problem training them to walk calmly, sit, down, and all the other behaviours that people often wish their dogs to do in order to be able to have a well-behaved dog that they feel comfortable taking out in public.  Be patient and do work with her everyday in many different environments.  I know that you are busy but perhaps you could fit in a 5 minute session before work, another 5 minutes when you get home, and another 5 minutes before you go to bed.  Short sessions more frequent sessions are usually much more productive than longer sessions, particularly when they are still puppies.  Also be aware that you will be (if you haven't already) be hitting Zoey's adolescence.  This period is often characterized by periods where they seem to forget everything they knew (as often happens with their adolescent human counterparts).  Be patient should you find this happening and go back to the beginning.  They usually progress much faster, but let Zoey be your guide as to how fast to progress.

 

If I can be of any help with specific questions please feel free to contact me privately, and I would be happy to answer any questions that you might have.

[Kerri B. & Zoey]

Thanks for your reply Sandra.  You make some interesting points with re: to the generalizing behaviors.  That makes a lot of sense.  I am still feeling a little unnerved about the collar, but plan to spend this weekend doing some homework and making a decision about what I want to do.  I am feeling better in general (and less angry/discouraged) as the week has gone on.

[Adina P]

Kerri...I say you WANT your dog to be at their worst for class. Better in CLASS...THE Learning environment for YOU than in other places. Behavior in class doesn't mean the class is not going well...it just shows her weak spots and that is good because it helps you see what to work on. Class is not for Zoey but for YOU. That is just one place out of many in the world where Zoey gets to practice and demo her range of obedience and YOU learn that range and what to do next.

As to the prong...DONT sell yourself short on your ability to learn how to use it. It is not a torture device so no reason to fear it. If you trust your trainer and your trainer's ability to train dogs than trust her on her opinion. It doesn't mean failure to use a prong...I use choke chains mainly and sometimes a prong as a crutch. Good luck.

[Adina P]

And as others have said, she is young and all dogs have their off days. 3 weeks into training is very early and even though she knows what sit means...it takes time and practice around many distractions before a dog will sit on command reliably anywhere.

[Kerri B. & Zoey]

Thanks Adina.  I appreciate the insight and support.

[Vicki and Harli]

Hi - I was thinking maybe a walk before class starts would help. Tire her out a little bit before class and give her something to chew on in the car. This is what we did with our mini golden doodle before puppy class and it helped. Also, is your dog a foodie? Harli will do anything for a treat! Good luck with your class! :)

[BRADY GOOSE MOORE (Mini Doodle]

Ouch ~ that really hurts the Mama Doodle's feelings!!!!!   I had to respond to this as (let me warn you though) a Puppy School drop out - (yes....we chose to 'home school') after two bad experiences at puppy training.   In our case it was more a reaction to comments during the first two classes  about  Brady's  "red gene"  (bad reaction to another dog at class)  and needing "correction".   She basically hurt my feelings so badly that I didn't want to take him back to class.   As it turns out several months later  Brady is actually 'over-the-top' friendly with both humans and other dogs and she  was wrong about him (I knew in my heart he was a little doll).    Before making the decision to use a prong collar,  I would give Zoey's regular collar a real chance  and LOTS of consistent training.  Now that Brady is 6 mos old, I DO see that our training has really sunk in - even 5 minutes/day will help.    Also,  some trainers just have different methods and ideas and perhaps this one isn't the best fit for you and your lovely Zoey.      P.S.   I did leave our class in tears.    (I think she just had something against  DOODLE'S.)

[Kerri B. & Zoey]

I think we can feel each others pain :) .  I was on the verge of tears.  Partially because I was angry (how dare he call my dog a hellion!).  But more about me feeling like I was failing Zoey, but as Adina mentioned...just because she is not on perfect behavior during class does not mean we're failing.  I am trying to take positive steps to invest more time in "homework" this week and am going to read up on prong collars so I can make an educated decision about what I want to do.

[Jaime and Barley Barker]

I'm so sorry that you have had this experience. Ultimately, you need to follow your instincts about using a prong collar or not. My trainer is extremely against them, and she feels that owners sometimes rely on the collar rather than actually working to modify the dog's behavior. Other doodle owners seem to have had great success with prong collars though. Someone on Puppy Madness said that she was able to get her CGC with a prong collar; I double-checked with my trainer who is a CGC evaluator and she repeated that she would never allow it because it doesn't prove that the owner has real control over the dog and that it's against the AKC rules for evaluators to allow it. So, I still tend to avoid anything but a flat buckle collar and I'd encourage you to see the prong collar as a transitional tool only rather than a cure. If you are worried about the prong collar, have you considered a Gentle Leader?

 

I also feel that some trainers hate goldendoodles. I was helping my mom train her goldendoodle by taking Daisy to obedience class. The trainer made it clear that she hated goldendoodles, saying she couldn't understand why anyone would breed those two dogs together, they are crazy and end up in shelters, and that Daisy had a humped back. (Basically, she told me that Daisy is ugly.) It killed my confidence. Don't be afraid to switch trainers if it's not working out. Trainers need to have people skills, not just dog handling skills. I also was taking Barley to a treibball class. We had our last class this Friday and I decided not to continue with it because Barley didn't like it. The trainer then told me that Barley is the laziest dog she's ever met, and when he rolled over for her to rub his belly, she said "No, Barley. I will NOT rub your belly". I think she was mad at me (and my dog) for not continuing on. Whatever. You need to do what's best for YOU and YOUR dog; don't worry about pleasing the trainer.

[Becka]

Poor Barley--I would have rubbed your belly! How unprofessional for a trainer to take out her feelings on the dog!