Feeding Guideline Help, tears help, weight size help...

[TYoung]

Hello All,

I have a multi part question :)

Hadley is 25 weeks old.  She is a medium multi-gen Australian Labradoodle.  She is presently 24+ lbs.  She is on Orijen Grain-free puppy.  On the Orijen website, assuming Im reading it correctly, I should be feeding her just a little over 1 cup a day (which is what I have been doing since I started her on this food maybe a month ago).  On the Chewy.com website, the recommended feeding is between 2 1/2 - 3 1/4 cups a day ( I just noticed their feed recs today).  I have a call into Orijen, but haven't heard back yet.  That is a huge difference in recommended daily amounts.  I have attached the 2 charts.  Please advise if you know. 

Also, do you happen to know, for this particular breed of doodle, when she should reach full skeletal growth?  and full body weight?  I assume those will peak at different time.

Lastly, her breeder had her on TOTW.  Her tear stains were darker and pretty heavy.  Since switching to Orijen, I noticed they are a little different in color (not as dark) and have lessened some.  With that, her tears stains/g*** is still quite a lot.  What is normal?  How much should it be?...what color?...any rec on how to lighten up that tear stain area?  I've been using colloidal silver, but not more than once a week to clean it up.  I pick them off all the time though.  What causes the tear stains?  (perhaps I should post the latter 2 questions on the health/medical group?)

Thanks so much for your guidance :)

Tanya & Hadley

[Laura and Angus]

I can really only respond to the tear stain question so here's what I know...

The Poodle is a breed that is prone to allergies and skin sensitivities. They can also have seasonal allergies that might impact how much their eyes are tearing at any given time. I would say that the only way to know if your own pup has "too much" staining would be to bring her in to the vet to discuss. My family had a standard poodle for 15 years and my bf and I now have an F1b Goldendoodle. We had to clean the eyes a few times a week and were recommended by the vet (and previous groomer) to put oil (I believe you can use mineral oil) along the tear stain path to help it from getting stopped up and gunky. With our current doodle, we clean his eyes every few days. The color of the gunk is typically dark brown/black looking. Recently he had an eye infection, which I diagnosed before taking to the vet by the watery nature of his eyes and pus/mucous-colored gunk. Easily cleared up with drops in a few days. If you have a groomer you trust, you might also talk with them about ways to help with the goopiness. Definitely something to post in the health/medical group too! I will tell you that the tear staining is part of the reason I wanted a dark-colored doodle.

Good luck!!

[TYoung]

Thanks, Laura!  

I will also post in health/medical group.

Hers is dark brown.  

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Regarding the feeding guidelines, you'll notice that Orijen's are based on the dog's expected weight as an adult. I'm not sure why you're using the "small to medium" i.e. Cocker Spaniel guideline, because odds are Hadley is going to be considerably bigger than a Cocker when she's full grown. I'd be using the Medium Breed guideline and feeding her about 2 cups per day.

That would be slightly less than 1000 kcal/day, which is roughly what she needs at her current size. The Chewy guidelines are way off.

Even ALDs are not a "breed", they are still mixes that do not breed true, and there is a huge fluctuation in their sizes. Did your breeder give you an estimated adult weight? If not, you can calculate her adult weight by doubling her weight at 17 weeks and adding 5 or 10 lbs. 
The age at which a dog reaches full skeletal growth depends on the adult size. With purebreds whose adult size is pretty much known from the day they're born, it ranges from 6 months for the smallest dogs to 2 years for the largest ones. Most doodles are done growing by the time they're a year old, and all but the largest ones reach full skeletal growth between 8 and 10 months. All dogs continue to gain weight in the form of lean body mass (muscle tissue) for several months after their skeletal growth is complete. 

Regarding tear staining, it's very common in dogs, and some breeds produce more than others, Poodles and Cockers among them, and Hadley has the genes from both breeds. It's purely cosmetic, and I would certainly not worry about it. We get stuff in the corners of our eyes, too, lol.

As to what causes it, here's a good explanation: 

Tear stains are usually caused by dye molecules called porphyrins. Porphyrins are iron-containing molecules, produced when the body breaks down red blood cells. Porphyrins are excreted primarily through bile and the intestinal tract, but in dogs a significant amount of porphyrin is excreted through tears, saliva and also urine.

When porphyrin containing tears or saliva sits on white fur for any length of time, stains result. These iron-related stains intensify/darken in the presence of sunlight.

All dogs produce porphyrin, but of course porphyrin staining is most noticeable on light colored dogs. If you have ever noticed a white dog who has been licking or chewing on his leg, the hair in that area will turn iron-brown in color as well.

Primarily, then, most tear stains in most dogs can be simply prevented by keeping the face meticulously free of porphyrin-containing tears. That means keeping the face hair trimmed, and wiping the face at least twice daily with a slightly damp wash cloth, to dilute out and wash away the tears.

[TYoung]

Thanks for your detailed answer, Karen! I love it!

Hadley is mixed with Water Spaniel which is at largest appx 40lbs.  That's where I made the error in reading the chart.  I looked at the Cocker subscript and Cockers are smaller...thank you for pointing that out.  I've been giving her just about a 1 1/2 cups...so I'll up the quantity asap.  She'll be happy about that. LOL.

Great explanation re: the porphyrins.  It's good to have an understanding and thus a measuring stick when evaluating what's normal.   Thanks!!

[TYoung]

OK...So, An Orijen rep called me back and she was SUPER nice.  She explained everything to me on the phone and then sent me a follow-up email re-expalining the feeding I should be providing Hadley at this point and going forward as well.  She did so so that I wouldn't have to look at the chart and be further confused.  She said that she does realize that the chart can be confusing to many as they read across, especially if their dog in-between weights listed.  

Anyhow, I would love your thoughts (Karen?) on her recommendation, given you have experience on doodles and your background.  It's less than the 2 cups daily you mentioned.  She based it on Hadley's present stats, and being appx. 35-40lbs full-grown.  

Thank you!!!

Here is what she wrote in her email:

Hi Tanya,

 

Here’s a bit of recap of our conversation!

 

For right now, I would recommend that you feed about 1 1/3 cups daily. That gives your little girl enough to go on. At this point, your puppy has done a great deal of her growing and will be filling out. J

 

At no point are you going to be feeding much more than this really, at full growth my recommendation would be for about 1 2/3 cups. Just keep an eye on her body condition, and adjust up or down slightly based on this.

 

At one year, you can move her to any of the ORIJEN Adult foods. You can choose one, or you can feed a rotational diet which is my favorite way to feed. There really is no right or wrong way to feed a rotational diet. Most people choose to do this by the bag, so when your Hadley has finished a bag, for the next one you can purchase something different. The first time you do it I would mix the food 50/50 just make sure everything is okay, after that you should be able to change at will.

 

I hope that helps, get in touch any time if you need clarification or have more questions!

 

Warm Regards,

Bonnie

Customer Care Leader

Champion Petfoods LP

T 877-939-0006

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

There are calculators on-line that you can use to figure out how many calories per day any dog needs, based on weight, age, and activity level. I disagree with the Orijen customer service rep on this. What she doesn't seem to be taking into account is the fact that a growing puppy needs way more calories per lb of body weight than an adult dog, sometimes twice as many. The Orijen Puppy formula contains 490 kcal/per cup. I used 40 calories per lb of body weight and got 960+ calories for Hadley. Two cups would be 980 calories. I really think she needs at least the cup and a half you're currently feeding. I would definitely not follow the customer service rep's recommendation and feed only 1 and a third cups. 
An adult dog of 40 lbs should be getting 800 to 1000 calories per day, (20 to 25 calories per lb of body weight). At 478 kcal/cup, one and one third cup of Adult Orijen contains only 635 calories, so she is flat out wrong about your "never going to be feeding much more than that", lol. But then, she is a customer service rep, not a nutritionist. :) 

[TYoung]

Thanks so much, Karen!

I looked around at the varying calculators on-line.  All the ones I found left something to be desired in terms of customization, specifically for puppies.  I did find a few facts and multipliers that helped in doing a manual calculation.  With that, I do understand that there is a range in which I need to work in and evaluate Hadley as she goes.  And I agree with you, puppy growth needs to be a main factor in calculating.  

SOOO, I'm thinking, Ms. Karen, that there is a business opportunity here for you.  Perhaps you should design an optimal dog food calculator that allows for greater customization.  That integrated into a blog with all your know how...I'm sure it would be a wild success.  So many people need access to trusted information.  Searching the many sites and sorting through "facts" can be very daunting and frustrating.  People want to do what's right, but it can be so confusing.  We are lucky on DK :)

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

The saving grace in this instance is that you can always adjust caloric intake, and it's never an exact science anyway, for dogs or for people. There are so many variables. If the dog is healthy, has good energy, and at a good body weight (as assessed by your vet), she's probably getting the right number of calories. 

And thanks for the kind words. :) 

[Jennifer & Truffle]

Hi there. For comparison purposes, we also have a medium-sized multi-generational ALD, Truffle, who is now 20 months old. At 22 weeks he was about 27 lbs and at 26 weeks he was about 29 1/2 lbs. He is now about 38 lbs and has hovered b/w 37-38 lbs since he was about 1 year old. His weight gain considerably slowed down after he was about 7-8 months old.  

[TYoung]

This is great information to compare to.  Truffle looks so cute.  Thanks so much, Jennifer! :)