Fromm vs Orijen Puppy

[Julie, Boomer, Milo & Casey]

My 10 week old puppy has had loose stools since we brought him home at 8 weeks.  Parasites were ruled out at the vet.  It isn't diarhhea, just loose.  He's been eating Orijen puppy.   Rewind 2 years and our 2yo doodle was eating orijen too but I soon switched him to Acana and he's had the perfect stools since then (you know how we all pride ourselves on the perfect poop - LOL)!   I switched my 2yo when he was 6 months because the clerk at the store told me he was getting too much protein from orijen so he's been on Acana and doing well for 18+ months now.

 

The breeder sent our puppy home with orijen so I've left our new puppy on it but wondering if thats causing loose stools so I went to a holistic pet shop yesterday that sells Fromm.   The protein percentage is substantial (40% orijen / 27% Fromm) so I gave him Fromm last evening and this morning he had the FIRST perfect poop.  Coincidence, I don't know?!  

 

The clerk at the store yesterday really was encouraging me to switch my older dog because she doesn't think a dog needs to be on a grain free diet (she compared Acana/Orijen to us eating protein shakes and bars all day)...and dogs shouldn't eat just protein either....unless they are doing alot of agility and hiking. 

 

I read through alot of posts on this group and so many feed orijen to their puppies and I wondered if they had problems with loose stools?  

 

She also explained that those grains that cause allergies are not the grains found in Fromm.  

 

Just when I think I'm on top of things, I meet a new clerk that throws me for a loop!  

 

Any opinions on orijen vs Fromm for a puppy?!     AND what about switching my Acana dog to Fromm also?   I'd like for the two to be eating the same thing eventually...would make things easier!

 

Thanks,

Julie

[Dori & Rua]

I started Rua on Puppy Orijen also.  Her poos were really loose, too.  I read on DK that Puppy Orijen is very high in protein and that can cause some Doodles tummy problems.  It was suggested by the person at the natural dog food store to do a mix, so, I bought Acana Grain-Free Wild Prairie and do a 50-50 mix.  Her Poos went from a 2.5-3 on our poo scale (1 being liquid to 5 being solid waste) to a 5!

[Kaytlin and Cooper]

Id suggest switching the puppy to Acana. Your store clerk is right in that often dogs dont need as much protein as the Orijen and Acana (and also other brands such as Evo). However, in my opinion (I work at a holistic pet store), poodles, or dogs with lots of poodle in them (mainly the bigger dogs) do tend to require higher proteins. For some reason, poodles can find it difficult to put weight on, especially when they are young. Active dogs also need high protein (most people dont even give their dog a hour activity a day).

 

Orijen and Acana arent just protein, theres lots of veggies in there too and it is a complete diet. However, each dog is different (I have 3 cats, all on different food, and its tough having to watch them eat making sure they dont switch bowls). Id try the Acana and see how your pup does with that. If after a month he still has loose poops then maybe try a lower protein food.

 

As for grains.... some dogs do well on gains, some dont. "good grains' can still cause allergies, they are just less likely to. Your pup is too young to be suffering from allergies though.

 

Bear in mind that your pup has only been with you for 2 weeks  - loose stools could be caused by stress - he may seem well settled in, but being away from his Mom and litter mates (and 7.75 weeks is still a bit too young for that to be honest) and in new surroundings can give an upset tummy (my kitten of 1 week has an upset tummy but seems perfectly well settled). He and your other dog are still working out the rules between them

 

Look at what treats you are feeding too, as this may be causing loose stools too. remember, he hasnt has theses before and some dogs can need a slow transition onto treats too (like food)

 

I dont know much about Fromm except it is good quality meat. i have a training session on Fromm in a few weeks and will be able to advise more then. If your older dog is doing well on Acana I wouldnt switch. Try Acana for you pup too.

 

On a side not - subtract protein, moisture, fat and fiber from 100% and this will give you the % of carbohydrates. Less protein equals more carbs. Excess carbs are turned into sugar and stored in the body as fat. Excess protein is pooped out (which may be whats causing the loose stools). This is why I think you should try Acana, as its lower in protein than Orijen, but lower in carbs than Fromm - a nice middle ground! If that is not helping |(give it a month) then try a lower protein, such as the  Fromm. Each dog is different and it can take a while to find what works best

 

NOTE You want the poop to be soft but formed. Many people (usually those feeding Iams, Pedigree, Eukanuba etc) think the perfect poop should be hard. Not so!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Unless the store clerk has a degree in nutrition, I wouldn't put much stock in her opinion. Working in a store doesn't make you an expert on health or medical issues. If a store clerk told me my dog was getting too much protein, I would ask her how she knows that, lol.

In fact, the single macronutrient that produces less stool volume than any other is animal protein. Providing the fiber content of the food is adequate, protein rich foods will not cause loose stools.  Kaytlin, with all due respect, excess protein is not pooped out. If anything, it may produce higher urine volume. But 40% protein in a dog's diet is not excessive.

A protein percentage of 40% means that 60% of the food is made up of fats, carbohydrates, and fiber. That's far cry from a "protein only" diet, and in fact, it's the proportion recommended by canine nutritionists. 40% is only two-fifths of the total. I myself ate a diet consisting of 40% protein when I was actively bodybuilding, and I'm not a canid, lol.

The clerk's analogy about protein shakes makes no sense to me at all; those are supplements, not actual foods, and humans' protein requirements are much different from dogs', as are our fat and carb requirements.

That said, some people do find their dogs do better on diets with lower animal proteins and/or more grains. A few FG members have had better luck with Acana than with Orijen, for their dogs who do have sensitive stomachs.

I also agree that this puppy is very young and some of these issues may be caused by stress; I would not make any kind of dietary changes yet. He's had enough changes in his short life. Give him a chance to adjust before making any changes.

[Julie, Boomer, Milo & Casey]

Thanks!  I was thinking the same thing about the clerk.   I have done research for the last 2 years so the things she was saying was all "new" to me and since I am NOT an expert, I wanted to ask you guys.   I'm going to stick with Orijen (I have a huge unopened bag that I should use) but will start putting some acana in there too.   I know he's eating some Acana right now too because I see him in my older dog's food bowl.  

 

Kaytlin - thanks for reminding me that he has just had a huge transition in to our home.   He seems so comfortable now that I had forgotten its only been 2 weeks. 

 

Thanks for your responses.  I appreciate it!!

Julie

[Kaytlin and Cooper]

Thanks for correcting me Karen. I may have had some training but I am by far an expert. Of course there are kidney issues associated with excess protein. (forgive me, ive barely slept these last few nights from a new kitten and sick dog and have yet to have any coffee!)

 

I do have a question for you.... it is a common conception that dogs like to eat cat poop as it is high in protein..... is there any truth to this or is it a total myth and dogs like cat poop because.... well its poop and it stinks

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I have no scientific data to back this up, but I believe it's the high fat in cats' diets that attracts them. Then again, I had a schnoodle who loved to eat rabbit poop, and rabbits have a pretty much fat-free diet, lol.

[Debb, Lucy & Oscar]

I think its pretty common for puppies to have loose stools, regardless of the food they're fed. We struggled with that for many months with Lucy. Adding cooked sweet potato to her diet remedied that, virtually overnight.

[Tara and Dublin]

Dublin eats Puppy Orijen and came home from breeder with pretty loose stool too.  After having his stool examined to rule out parasites I was told to throw some pumpkin in with his food.  Canned Pumpkin filling did do the trick immediatley solid stool.  I am on the hunt find and change foods because if he does not get his pumpkin his stool gets loosey goosey again....I think the puppy formula orijen has to much protein for his little belly... 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Make sure you are not using pumpkin "filling"- it has to be pure pumpkin, NOT pumpkin pie filling.

Protein would not cause loose stools. If anything, high-protein causes very firm stools. However, if the puppy was previously eating a food that contained grains, it can take time for their systems to adjust. When switching foods with young puppies, who have immature digestive systems to start with, it can take some time to get a good stool consistency.

[Tara and Dublin]

Absolutely....Yeppers.... Coorect Pure Pumpkin not pie filling!!!  I did freeze some and I read somewhere that you could mix it with a little yogurt too although that sounded very dairy to me so I have not done that since the pumpkin has worked....

[Julie, Boomer, Milo & Casey]

Is the yogurt suppose to firm the stools?     I gave my older dog pumpkin as a puppy and it helped.  I tried giving it to my new puppy and he sniffed it and walked away from his bowl.   He wants nothing to do with the pumpkin!   He's getting much better stools now though.   I'm still feeding Orijen puppy but see him in my other dog's Acana Grasslands from time to time too.   He's probably getting 90%orijen-10%acana.

[Tara and Dublin]

I am not certain but I believe the yogurt (plain) is more of a health benefit verses a stool hardener and the article I read basically listed a frozen treat of mixed plain yogurt with pumpkin in ice cube form.....sounded like an easy thing to have on hand if the yogurt is truly beneficial?