How much food to feed?

[Debb, Lucy & Oscar]

My Lucy, a standard labradoodle puppy of almost 4 months of age, is currently eating First Mate's Chicken and Blueberry food. It was the food the breeder started her on and what I've continued to feed. Lucy is about 25lbs. My husband is concerned that we may not be feeding her enough, as she's always cruising the counters for food (even though we've never fed her from the counters, nor given her scraps from the table). I contacted First Mate and asked them about quantity of food to feed and their suggestion was 3/4 cup a day for a dog up to 30lbs. They said their food was highly concentrated.  We fed that much for a couple weeks, but at her last vet's appt. the vet said she was on the lean side and that we could up her food intake. We're currently feeding 1-1/2 to 2 cups of food a day, spread out into 3 feedings.

 

What is the consensus here on amount of food to feed?  Could she be needing more? Thanks for any and all comments.

[Melissa & Porter]

All I know is that a grown dog eats less than a puppy--don't know if your phone person got that part of the picture.

Also, my dog, who is neither lean nor fat, is always trying to steal food.

Oh, and activity has to factor in to the picture.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

A puppy Lucy's age should be fed three times a day. I don't know why your breeder had her on this food, but it is not the greatest food in the world, especially for a puppy. It's got starch as the main ingredient, and fat for the third ingredient. First Mate recommends this food for dogs who need limited ingredients or have food allergies. They do make a puppy formula, but that's not the greatest in terms of protein either.
Here's the ingredients in this food:
Ingredients:
Potato, Chicken Meal, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tochopherols), Whole Blueberries, potassium chloride, methionine, choline chloride, calcium propionate, Minerals (zinc, iron, maganese, copper, iodine, cobalt, selenium) Vitamins (vitamin E,riboflavin, niacin, d–pantothenic acid, thiamine, vitamin A, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, vitamin D3, glucosamine
Feed Analysis:
Protein (minimum)……………….25.0 %
Fat (minimum)…………………….14.0 %
Moisture (maximum)…………….10.0 %
Fibre (maximum)…………………...4.0 %
Ash (maximum) …………………....7.0 %
Calcium ……………………………..1.7 %
Phosphorous ………………………1.0 %
Calcium / Phosphorous ratio ….1.7: 1.0
KCal As Fed....540 (155grams/8oz cup)
This food is very high in calories. However, IMO, this is not enough protein for any dog, and I believe your puppy may be underweight and hungry all the time because she isn't getting more animal protein, which is what a larger percentage of her calories should be coming from.
There is no "concensus" on what amount to feed, because every food is different in terms of calorie density, and every dog's requirements are different. The general rule of thumb for how much to feed is to follow the amounts recommended on the bag, and then adjust up or down according to the individual dog's activity level or appetite. However, for a young puppy, that only works if you're feeding a food made for puppies. So if you want to stay with this food, I don't have a clue. Did the person on the phone know you were talking about a 4 month old puppy?
Personally, I would switch to Orijen Puppy. I think your dog would be much more satisfied.

[Debb, Lucy & Oscar]

Hey Karen,

To answer some of your questions, yes, the First Mate person did know I was talking about a 3 month puppy (at the time). As for the amount to feed listed on the bag, it suggests 1 to 2 cups for dog from 20 to 50lbs, with the caveat to, "adjust feeding according to your dog's activity level, age, breed, seasonal environment, and desired body conformation."

Lucy's breeder was very specific to feed a food with no more than 25-30% protein content, as too high a protein content could cause her joints to develop too quickly and cause problems later in life. I had originally liked Orijen, as that was what I was feeding my cat at the time, but it has way too high a protein content based on my breeder's recommendation. I've considered changing to TOTW, and actually have a bag of one of the formulations ready to go. I have to admit that the only reason we didn't change was because we received a gift certificate from the First Mate people for a free 20lb bag of food, and we're currently working on getting through that. I would like to change to TOTW though.

I had no idea First Mate was such a bad food.

[Debb, Lucy & Oscar]

Oh, also Karen, the First Mate Chicken and Blueberry food is formulated for all stages of dog growth, puppies included. I don't know how that translates to amount to feed a puppy however... more or less or what.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

There are varying opinions on the amounts of protein that "may cause problems later in life", but in nature, a puppy would be getting a diet that is almost exclusively protein.
The problem with this food is that the label shows the total amount of protein by weight, NOT the actual usable percentage of protein, and does not account for complete protein versus plant protein, much of which is unusable. Potatoes do contain protein, but it cannot be utilized the way that animal protein is, because it lacks essential amino acids which the body cannot produce. Therefore, we have to look at the kind of protein as well as the overall percentage. A food with 25% plant protein is much different nutritionally than a food with 25% animal protein. If you measured the actual usable protein in this food, it might be as low as 10%.
There is simply not enough complete protein from animal sources in this food for a growing puppy, IMO.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Dog Food Analysis, which is the source we most often use, does not list this particular food, but they do not rate the other First Mate products very highly. Many of them get only 1 or 2 stars, which is below even the grocery store brands. The reasons vary, but lack of animal protein is one of the big ones.
A recent study at Purdue University also showed that chicken fat within the first four ingredients of a dog food greatly increases the chances of bloat.
Of course you didn't know it wasn't a good food. That's why we have this group; none of knew the truth about what we were feeding for so long! And all of us try to do the best we can for these dogs we love. That's why we're here together trying to figure it all out. I'm glad you've joined us.

[Debb, Lucy & Oscar]

Wow, after reading some of the reviews at Dog Food Analysis, I'm shocked by what passes as dog food. I've noticed that many of the reviews for the 6 star foods mention not feeding puppies the foods with a high protein content (especially large breed dogs). I liked what I read about the 6-star rated TOTW High Prairie food (I have a bag of this one), except that it contains canola oil. After starting this discussion, I've begun mixing the TOTW food with the First Mate food to start the transition. Lucy loves the TOTW kibble (but then she loves EVERYTHING edible... and many non edible things as well!). I'll feel better feeding her a 6 star rated food.

Thank you very much, Karen! I appreciate your input!

[Julie B.]

I was going to start a discussion about feeding my puppy but I think I can ask the question here.... I have my 5 month old pup on Fromms Salmon a la veg and even though she likes it I don't think it is filling her up enough and she has constant runny poops. Granted she has had some health issues with giardia and colitis but that has cleared up so I have transistioned her back to Fromms from the homecooked burger and rice I was feeding her. I know I am overfeeding her which may be causing the runs, but she is constantly hungry and she really isn't gaining as much as she should. I am lucky if she puts on 2 lbs a week. My question is; should I try putting her on a puppy formula food rather than an all life stages food or should I supplement her kibble feedings with some brown rice to help firm her poops and make her feel fuller? I really don't want to go to home cooking because I am a kibble feeder from way back. Any suggestions?

[Allyson, Peri & Taquito]

Julie - after rotating between Fromm flavors, I have decided Peri does better with the Pork & Applesauce or the Duck than with the salmon. Not only does she seem more satisfied, she has WAY firmer poops. The pork has produced the best poos. Why don't you try that? I don't think you need to definitely go to puppy formula OR homecooking. Just try a new flavor - the protein can make the difference.
Hope that helps!

[Julie B.]

Thanks, I may try that. The other issue I am having with her lately... hate to even mention this but she is wanting to eat my other dog's poop and now she is even going after her own! It is SOOO disgusting to me. She doesn't want to eat any other dog's when we go for a walk so I am again wondering if it is the food. She eats really fast so it's possible that the food is still undigested when it comes out. I have tried all the known remedies... pumpkin, pineapple juice and even putting tabasco on the little morsels. Nothing works except for me to get her back inside and pick all poops up when she doesn't see me doing it. It is a real hassle and frankly it affects my relationship with her because I find it so disgusting. I have never had a pup do this so it is hard for me to deal with. I am thinking about getting a shock collar and using it very lightly to train it out of her. She responds to the leave it command but not when there is a fresh one on the ground! Oh well I'll figure it out but I did wonder if I should just go back to a lesser quality food and see if that reduces this issue.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Don't go back to a lesser quality food, and please don't use a shock collar!
Check sources like "Foster & Smith" for additives you can use in their food to discourage this behavior. Another thing you can try is to clean up the poop the minute it hits the ground, before she has a chance to get at it.

[Julie B.]

Deer and rabbit poo seems more normal to me than consuming YOUR OWN! I just ordered some Forbid packets to put on their food. We'll see if that helps. I am picking it up right away but as you can imagine it is a maintenance nightmare. I can't just turn my dogs out in the backyard for awhile because I have to be constantly monitoring their behavior. I am just not used to this. I really wish I had never gotten another dog-- I have a great dog in my first doodle and I should have just kept it a one dog family. This puppy has been a pain since the day I brought her home. Most of it is not her fault with all of the health problems but I just wish I had a day where I could just enjoy having her around and not be constantly "on guard" for something. I know a lot of doodle owners on this site really go all out for their dogs and I respect that but I really wonder if I want to deal with all of this crap... no pun intended. Thanks for your advice and hopefully tomorrow will be a better puppy day.