Supplements for Raw Feeders.

[Sue, Murphy and Bella ()*o*()]

Karen,

I know there is a raw food group, however it is not very active and I need your opinion on supplements recommended for Raw Feeders. What do you know and think of Dinovite and LickOchops additives? Now that I am retiring, :), I will have the time to invest in making their own foods again and it will be mostly raw. I am hoping this will eliminate Bella's itchiness completely.   I feel if its a balanced diet, with good variety, there should be no need for supplements, pretty much like us or like it would be in the wild.    The only supplement I feel is helpful for them is the fish oil.  

I would love your opinion on this. Thanks. 

[Shari Becker]

When we started feeding Lexi raw, our holistic vet gave us three supplements. One was a Vitamin C powder, one was fish oil and one was some sort or iron, I think. I still have it, but the ink has smudged off. We couldn't do our own raw, so we began buying the pre-made frozen kind. We ultimately only stuck with the fish oil and probiotics. I felt like if I was buying balanced food than they shouldn't need any others. Good luck! I'll be curious to know what others think. For whatever it's worth, Lexi has had less itchiness with Orijen 6 fish mixed into her diet than with just raw. And, I think her itchiness is very seasonal. The winter heat makes her itch as does pollen in the fall....

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

This is interesting, because unlike people, dogs make their own vitamin C and don't need to get it from their food. :) 

One would hope that any vet would know that, but as I've said many times, vets receive no nutritional curriculum in vet school, and I guess that's true for "holistic" vets as well. 

I agree that if you want to feed raw, the pre-made commercial raw diets are safer and more nutritionally complete. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Sue, I don't know how you missed the huge Dinovite debacle discussion we had here a couple of years ago, but it's definitely worth taking a look; even Clark showed up to debate the Dinovite execs who joined DK to promote and defend their product. Pretty entertaining: http://www.doodlekisses.com/forum/topics/dinovite

Dinovite is worthless, IMO. I don't know what "lickochops" is, but I'm going to guess it also is of no benefit. For any type of homemade diet, you need a good vitamin/mineral supplement. You also need a source of Omega 3 fatty acids like fish oil. And probably an extra calcium supplement. 

I'm not a fan of homemade raw diets. I see no benefit whatsoever other than a possible benefit from the raw bones helping to keep the teeth cleaner, and I see plenty of risk. Most of what you read on "raw feeding" sights is completely untrue, in terms of the "dogs have shorter digestive tracts and stronger stomach acid so they aren't affected by the bacteria in the raw food. That's false. Lots of dogs do get bacterial infections from food. There are also many cases of dogs choking or being otherwise injured by bone fragments. There's a DK doodle who almost died from a piece of dense indigestible raw bone sitting in the gut, and required several surgeries. The dog lived but has serious, permanent digestive disease. 

The "in the wild" stuff also makes no sense to me. They aren't in the wild, they were never in the wild, so why should they eat like wild dogs? They live indoors, they get their nails cut and their coats brushed and their ears cleaned, lol. Wild dogs don't live as long as our guys do, and they do get sick. We don't eat what our ancestors ate, either, and our life expectancy is a lot longer than theirs was, as well.  And "in the wild", we couldn't eat many of the foods which are known to be beneficial to humans, such as whole grains, because they do need to be processed in order for us to eat them.  

But even if you really think a wild dog's diet is beneficial, you can't duplicate it at home, because they eat the whole prey, blood, skin & fur included, while it's still warm. :) 

And that prey is also eating a wild, natural diet, which the chicken and beef in the grocery stores were not. What the prey animal eats determines what vitamins and minerals the predator gets from that food. For example, grain fed beef has way more phosphorus than grass fed beef, and needs to be balanced with supplements.

As far as a balanced diet goes, I eat a very balanced diet, and I still take a multivitamin for women over 50 every day. :)

Finally, there is nothing at all about a raw diet as opposed to a cooked diet that would help in any way shape or form with itchiness. Think about it. If the itchiness is caused by food allergies, how would the food being raw help? Can a child with peanut allergies eat raw peanuts? A molecule of chicken protein (or beef protein, or wheat protein,etc) looks the same to an antibody whether it is raw or cooked, and will trigger the same immune response. This is why the hypoallergenic RX foods use hydrolyzed proteins: the protein is so broken down that it is unrecognizable to the immune system, can't be identified as chicken, beef, whatever,  and therefore doesn't trigger an allergic response. This is where the "raw feeding" websites really have it completely wrong, because the less processed an allergen is, the more easily identifiable it is and the more likely to cause an allergic response. That might be why Shari's dog was less itchy on kibble than on the raw food. :)

That stuff about enzymes in raw food being beneficial is also a lot of hokum, because dogs (and humans) don't get their enzymes from food, even in the wild. They make their own from the amino acids in their food. The enzymes that are in the animal meat are broken down by the digestive process just like the rest of the aminos. 

Anyway, sorry this is so long. I really think it's important to know the facts before going with this method of feeding. 

I would suggest purchasing Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs by Lew Olson, PhD. She's formally educated in canine nutrition and her diets are nutritionally sound, although she does sell the supplements, so be careful. :) 

 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Just looked up "lickochops"; that's a Dinovite product, and is nothing but fish oil and chicken fat. 

[Sue, Murphy and Bella ()*o*()]

Ok, and you have totally refreshed my memory, which is poor at best anyway. I do remember the "debate" about Dinovite now.  Quite the discussion! Thank you for the long response, it was the information I needed again to help me make my choices. Love talking things through with you, and I always feel like you will give it to me straight. 

I do enjoy cooking for them and I am rethinking the raw again. Knew there was a reason they have been on Fromm, besides the convenience. They are doing well on it and I will probably just add cooked food to their kibble again like I used to, on a more regular basis. If for no other reason than we all enjoy it.  

As for eating like our ancestors, I eat a rather clean and Paleo diet, again trying to do as our ancestors did, within the restrictions of our food culture as it is today.  It's never going to be what a family growing and raising their own food had, or cavemen ate like,  but I do feel, the less processed, the better. So, my thinking is more along those lines. No they certainly dont live like wild dogs....( although they are pretty wild at times)  and neither do we live like cavemen, but I would hope going back to more natural, less processed foods would benefit them as well as it has me. But because our foods can't be as pure as homegrown/raised,or like in the wild, Yes, I feel we/they do need supplements as well. I do add fish oil and whole cooked eggs with shells to their food when I home cook for that reason. There may be other additives "recommended", but I will have to put my faith in processed commercial kibble to help with the delicate balancing act of complete nutrition.  Something I have trouble putting my complete faith in no matter how many stars it gets.  But thats just me. 

Im not thinking her itchiness is from food allergies per se,  only that the benefits of the more or different natural oils, fats, omegas, different nutrients, might help her skin.  So thanks again. You have single handedly made me a good pet owner and once again, helped give me the information to make an educated decision. 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I agree with your thinking on much of this.

To me, the "ideal" and healthiest diet for our dogs (and ourselves) would be a homecooked diet made from fresh, natural foods. Obviously, the amount of cooking that would involve for two larger dogs (or even one JD, lol) is daunting. (It would have been the very best diet for Jack's IBD; but after analyzing and approving the nutritional values of my recipe, his specialist calculated that he would need 8 cups of the homemade food per day. That's just not doable for me, although it is for some. So I have compromised and he gets about 40% homemade food and 60% a high quality, LID kibble. Next dog around, it will be a different story, because this is my last "over 40 lbs" dog.)

I believe that costwise, though, it would be the same as a homemade raw diet. In terms of being less processed & more natural, there again it would be comparable. 

In terms of the "more or different natural oils, fats, omegas, different nutrients", the cooked homemade diet versus the raw homemade diet would also be comparable. :)

And thanks for the very nice compliment. 

[Sue, Murphy and Bella ()*o*()]

Yes, absolutely the homemade raw vs cooked would be comparable as you buy raw to cook it, so I get the cost and nutrients thing. I was referring to kibble. But didn't make that clear, did I?  :( 

The work and cost of cooking for these two 60 pd beasts is daunting, and I'm with you on the next one being less than 40 pds!!! 

8 cups a day would be a lot for sure.  Mine get about 3 cups a day of cooked food, less if im adding kibble of course. 

[Ricki and Tara (doodle)]

Tara has eaten raw for many years. The only supplements I add to her ground meat and bone is kelp powder for trace minerals and fish oil. She has been very healthy but I do think she has a minor atopic allergy because she will get bumps  after she has been out in weeds or more wild areas. However, they don't seem to bother her as I just find them when I am touching her and not because she is scratching. So I guess that part is good. I don't know if this would be worse on a different diet?? It's just not possible to know without trying.  She does get Orijen freeze dried food for treats (not cooked) and Acana kibble for training at times.  Raw's not so good for that!! :)

[Shari Becker]

Lexi is 2/3 raw, 1/3 Orijen 6 Fish. For me, it's not about the food being "raw," it's about the lesser amount of processing and additives. We, too, have gone paleo (ish) in the past year, and we can definitely see the difference in how we feel. Our vet said that she can tell just from looking at Lexi's eyes and coat that she is super healthy and well fed. Of course, as I write this, she is sitting next to me scratching...  The vet things the Omegas in the 6 fish are helping with the itching, but now that the heat is on again, I may add those oil supplements in again.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

When JD was first diagnosed with Atopic Dermatitis, his dermatology specialist recommended that I switch him to Orijen's 6 Fish (he was eating Fromm's Salmon a la Veg) specifically for the Omega 3 content and the Omega 6:3 ratio, which is the best of any commercial dog food made by anyone anywhere. :)

I guess what I am not understanding about the "lesser amount of processing and additives" is how there is a difference in that regard between a homemade raw diet and a homemade cooked diet. If the ingredients are the same (fresh meats, poultry, veggies, oils, etc), aside from the minor "processing" involved in gentle cooking, there's really no difference. You're not including any additives. And we know that simple, appropriate cooking really doesn't deplete much of the nutrients in food, or all of us would have nutritional deficiencies. :) 

[Shari Becker]

I'm not sure there's a huge difference between homemade raw or homemade cooked. Ironically, it's super easy to buy prepared raw dog food, but I've never seen the equivalent of cooked fresh food for dogs! (Wouldn't that be great though?) And I'm not up for cooking for Lexi daily. So if that's what you want, but you don't have time to cook, you're just left with the frozen raw stuff. (And to be fair, there are varying degrees of quality there, too.)

For me, raw is just an extension of the lifestyle I already live with my human family....

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

There is prepared cooked food available, but it costs a fortune!