Heated Discussions, Puppy Mills, Loving Our Dogs, and Bad Feelings! PLEASE READ!

[Laurie, Fudge, and Vern]

I live in Pennsylvania, which happens to be a state that has some bad laws when it comes to animals.  I have a neighbor that chains his dogs up 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.  You can do that in Pennsylvania as long as you provide food and shelter.  How do I know this?  Because I have called to report my neighbor a couple of times and nothing is ever done. The last time I called was because he chained up a very small dog that shouldn’t be living out in the elements. No dog should. This week, when I drove by his house, his beautiful, filthy dirty, Springer Spaniel was in the middle of the road. Fudge and Vern were going crazy in the car, but I drove by three times to see if I could get the dog to come home with me, but then the neighbor came out and got him.  I guess the dog figured with all that barking in the car, he would take his chances where he was living.  Later, I drove by to see him back on his chain. His doghouse was surrounded by mud and water from all the rain we have had, and he was stretching his chain to find a dry spot to stand.  Recently, I penned a letter to my neighbor asking him if I could help find those dogs a home or bring them a bone or walk them or something.  My other neighbor, who is one of the kindest people I know, said not to mail it, because the guy isn’t right and who knows what he would do to us or Fudge and Vern. I haven’t mailed the letter.  I don’t know what to do, because according to our laws, those dogs are being cared for, and I feel guilty because I look away when I drive by that house.

 

This week, we had a discussion on DK that got heated.  Usually, I post funny blogs and try to stay out of the fray.  I think I can count on two fingers the times I have been confrontational on DK and feel free, to correct me if I am wrong. This time I got involved. I thought about it long and hard before I posted and some have said, I hijacked the discussion because it was meant for something else.   It won’t be the first time this happened on DK and it won’t be the last. When you are standing face to face and arguing, it is easier, because you can react to body language and facial expressions.  Writing your words down gets trickier, because there is what you said in black and white, no going back, and no way to tell if you are reading more into it then you should.  It is also easier to say something in writing when you don’t have to see the hurt or anger on the face of the person standing in front of you. I don’t like fighting, although my oldest daughter and I have no problem doing it and we have had angry words, moments where I think she is the biggest idiot I know and vice versa, and phone hang-ups, but we never hang up the phone on each other without first yelling, “I love you,” and even sometimes, “I love you, but never call again,” and thirty minutes later we are back on the phone. 

 

The problem with the Internet is, once you put it out there for all to see, you are inviting people with different life experiences, different opinions, different experiences, and different hot buttons to respond.  There is no going back or calling back. That is why when people get on DK and post that they would like to breed their male dog, without knowing anything about the dog’s lineage, on a site that promotes responsible breeding by experienced professionals and spaying and neutering, sometimes it does not matter how nicely you say something, but because the response is not what the poster wants to hear, they get upset, mad, and sometimes leave DK.  This happened the other day, when someone posted that she just got a new puppy and more or less, is letting it sleep in its own pee or poop, because she needs her sleep at night.  Again, you are on a website that loves dogs, where most people make all kinds of sacrifices those first few months, and you are surprised when someone gets upset that you don’t feel like getting up at night with a puppy that can’t possibly hold its bladder or bowels for an entire night. Sure enough, someone spoke up and didn’t say, “I agree wholeheartedly. Let your dog sleep in its own filth, because you need your rest,” and that person got mad and left DK.   Sometimes, there is no way to sugarcoat the obvious.

 

This week the discussion was something different and listed a name that because I live in the same state, I just happened to recognize. Was it about Puppy mills? No, it was not, but I knew what it was and I was worried if I said nothing, someone would be out there researching and happen upon this name and open up the discussion and see adorable dogs and happy owners and think it was a great place to get a dog. What if that person got a dog from there and recommended it to another person and they got a dog and so on and so on, and because I said nothing and looked away, more money went into the pockets of people that don’t deserve to profit off of dogs.  So, I ask you, where should I have posted it on DK and would it had made a difference if I opened a new discussion? 

 

Yesterday, I saw in the news that someone in Chicago had been arrested for drop kicking a kitten between 15 to 18 feet into the air, and then signaled a “field goal” with his arms. He was laughing as they arrested him and said, “it’s just a cat,” and that they played like this all the time.  We certainly all recognize this as animal cruelty.  Then my husband came home to tell me that someone who he works with just bought a puppy at an “Amish farm’ in Lancaster, PA.  Sometimes, we don’t see this as being on the same par as drop kicking a kitten. My husband said he congratulated his co-worker because he was so thrilled and just listened while he talked about how they checked out the facility, the parents, and all the dogs were happy.  My friend bought a dog the same way and came home with bogus papers and now doubts she even has a Labradoodle.  This kind of thing happens all the time where I live.  Very nice people, looking for a dog, go in search of one, find one they can afford, visit the place, like what they see, and of course, the puppy is beyond cute, and bring the puppy home.

 

There was a time I might have done the same.  The best dog we ever had as far as temperament and training, Hershey, came from a friend of a friend, who had a Lab that accidentally got impregnated by the roving Lab in her neighborhood.  I didn’t have a clue about health testing or back yard breeders.  We could afford Hershey and our daughter wanted a dog.  Period.  Hershey lived to be thirteen, surviving on Science Diet, and no training of any kind. She never went to doggie daycare, the dog park, never pulled on a leash, got along with our cat, our rabbit, a bird, and almost every dog and person she met, and rarely was leashed when we sat in our yard. If anyone had ever told me, I should not have gotten this dog, I would have been furious.  Fudge and Vern were the first dogs I ever had that pull on a leash like two oxen pulling a wagon. Fudge reacts to almost every moving thing and Vern peed when a puppy at the groomers jumped on him.  Any dog we ever had growing up was gotten from a newspaper ad or word of mouth.  I am sure most of them were free or cheap.  No matter where these dogs came from, we loved all of them.

 

Now, I have Fudge and Vern, my wonderful heart dogs, my Doodles, and because of them, I found DoodleKisses.  When I first joined, I remember a rescue was in process for a dog named Matt.  I don’t remember all the details, but I remember how amazed I was by this community and how I rooted for Matt to find a better life.  Since I have been on this website, I have heard so many similar stories about dogs that got a second chance and some of them, not all, have been Puppy Mill dogs.  What I knew about Puppy Mills up until that point, came from TV, magazines, or newspapers, but now I was seeing individual dogs with names and faces and tragic stories and seeing that we had hero’s right here on DoodleKisses.  It was so much harder to look away.  I couldn’t turn off the TV when it got to be too much and tell myself it doesn’t happen often, that most people are kind and caring with their animals.  It was time to face the facts.

 

Last week, I did a very dumb thing. I came home to find our Cable provider’s truck in our driveway.  The guy looked legitimate; after all he had an official truck with the right logo and said he was checking out the guy who had done repairs for us the previous week.  He asked to come in the house and I let him.  I never asked for ID and didn’t get his license plate.  I stayed with him in the basement, but when he got out a camera and took a picture of nothing important that I could see, it made me uneasy.  He left, but I worried about it, until my husband got home and told him the details, fully expecting him to laugh it off, but he didn’t.  He had me call the Cable Company and report it to security.  The woman on the other line made me feel even dumber for not getting ID and I got a well-deserved lecture from several people that night.  The next day, security called to tell me it was a cable worker and he was supposed to be there.  How many times are we told to ask for ID and I know it, but I thought the guy looked nice and made a bad decision?

 

I think it is the “niceness” that gets me the most about some of these breeders, because it is how they disguise the evilness and get wonderful people to buy a dog from them and like me, with the Cable guy, we tell ourselves that “nice” people don’t do bad things.  Yet, we hear on the news all the time that some of the people that commit the worst crimes are described as being “nice” by neighbors, co-workers, friends, and family? Ted Bundy immediately comes to mind.  When you think about it like that, you have to ask yourself if you honestly think a Puppy mill breeder is going to have you come back to the areas where the real atrocities happen and let you look around?  No, they are going to show you what you want to see and answer your questions with answers they know you want to hear. This is why they stay in business, because we all know if you walked back to see dogs lying in their own filth or the filth of the dog directly above it, you would recognize this for what it really is and get the hell out of there. 

 

Are they going to tell you that when the breeding parents are used up, they will be dropped at a shelter or worse? No, because you would recognize this for what it happens to be…animal cruelty.  Are they going to tell you the parents are not health tested and at best, you might get a 30-day guarantee, if that?  They are smarter than that, and most people who have a puppy for 30 days probably won’t return it any ways and what do you think happens to that puppy if it gets returned? Are they going to admit that they are in the puppy selling business to make money, lots of it, and really don’t care about any of their dogs?  No, they won’t and they have their “nicest” people working with the public, so we buy it and go home with one of their puppies. This is how they stay in business and disguise all the ugliness.  They have to sell these dogs using deceitfulness, trickery, role-playing, and illusion; otherwise, if they did it using the truth, NO ONE would ever buy a dog from them. 

 

 

The only way we can stop this and win is to continue talking about it and getting the word out about these places.  I have been on DoodleKisses long enough to know that most of these discussions end badly, because if you start talking about how bad Puppy Mills and Pet shops are, it upsets the kind and loving people, who for good reasons in their minds and with great intentions, somehow ended up with one of these dogs.  It always ends with hurt feelings, misunderstandings, and resentfulness, and by dividing us, the people who love dogs; we get weaker against these bad breeders.  I wish I could let this go.  I wish I had said it better this week.  I wish I did not upset members that I care about and like.  It keeps going around and around in my head and I am not in the habit of hurting people, so it does not sit easily with me.

 

All I meant to say is educate yourself and others so we can put these places out of business and end the suffering of these dogs.  Maybe I didn’t post it in the right spot, but I am now. If we work together, instead of against each other, we can make a difference, because I truly believe and I am borrowing this from Oprah, “that when we know better, we do better.” This topic is going to keep coming up here because it is a dog website loaded with passionate and caring people, and I mean all of them, no matter where you got your dog. We are probably going to fight again, but hopefully we can each learn a little something from the other and get it right one of these days.  I would like to move past this and go back to playing games and writing funny blogs, but I also don’t want us to turn a blind eye to any dog that is suffering.  I don’t want to forget that behind every adorable puppy that comes from a place like this, there are mama and papa dogs that are nothing more than breeding machines until they can no longer perform. Think how much you love your dog, but no one loves these dogs or cares for them in the way we care for our own pets.  They are at the mercy of heartless monsters, through no fault of their own, and no one to speak for them, except us. Thank you, if you are still reading, for letting me say what I have not been able to stop thinking about since this all started.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Laurie, YOU ROCK!  I really think DK is like a "virtual family".  We are clearly bonded together by our love of dogs, and in so many cases that has grown into a love for each other.  I don't know about your family, but in mine there are lots of differing viewpoints.  We have some who have strong (and often differing) political viewpoints.  We have our Patriots fans and our Giants fans.  We have those strongly for or against gun control.  I could go on and on.  We have very interesting and sometimes heated family dinners.  But the one thing that is constant and consistent, is that we all respect one another and each person's right to their own point of view.  We always end one of these dinners with everyone being friends....well unless there was a card game involved.  If DK was just a place where everyone "pretended" to agree with EVERYONE else, it would be pretty boring.  I for one would not even be here.  Heck, I'm the person who posted my picture with Cesar Milan...now that's just asking for controversy.  Laurie, you have beautifully expressed what so many of us feel about puppy mills.  I think you WERE respectful in your comments.  I also agree that you need a "standing O"...so here it is).

[Karen and Bridget]

Everything you said Laurie was spot on.  Thank you for voicing what so many of were thinking.  I agree with Anna, you deserve a standing ovation.

[Pat and Traveler]

Puppy mills and improper care of new puppies--of course these are hot-button subjects, especially for a dog forum.  This site is blessed with caring and passionate dog owners who will do their best to stop these and other abuses, rightfully so as the need for this is great as the mills seem to have a Hydra-like existence and ignorance, especially among new owners, is rampant.  I think we can help some of the newly arrived ignorant--not by driving them away but by education and suggestion.  Sometimes it's not the big picture--puppy mills in general or all abused dogs--but that image of one small puppy, in a urine soaked crate, that is worthy of our assistance.  Sometimes maybe we can be the knave correcting the fit of the saddle rather than the charging white knight.     

[Ricki and Tara (doodle)]

I followed the p.m. discussion and the stud discussion all the way through. I thought the comments make were appropriate and stated in a non hostile manner by those trying to be informative on the subjects. It was the right time, it was the right place.  If we waited for the ideal time to discuss these subjects,well, it just would never happen! These are not subjects we ENJOY talking about but they NEED to be talked about. That is the only way these things well ever be stopped.

You are so correct about the difficulty with the written word. It is so easy to  incorrectly read our own emotions into things others write and I could see so much of that happening in these discussions. But if hurt feelings is what it takes to get these puppy mills and byb's off the map then so be it. Should the animals continue to suffer because we don't want to hurt someone's feelings?  Nope!!!

Thanks for this blog Laurie and the chance to come together as a community and sort through the last few days.

[Colleen, Jake & Baxter]

Thank you Laurie. Speaking the truth and shedding light on this subject (amish puppy mills) is not pretty but it is the right thing to do.  People need to know and research what is going on but unfortunately as we have experienced most people do not want to hear the truth because sometimes it's not pretty.  In fact, finding out the truth about something can be pretty ugly and it is much easier not to think about things such as that.  As long as information about these particular puppy mills remain hidden the more they will flourish.  But, the more this information is revealed and brought out into the open the more people will gain revelation and understanding as to what this is all about.  Since this website does have many new people asking for information about where to get a doodle I for one would like to see something permanent on the front page of DK about puppy mills.

In addition, I had a similar situation with the dog living across the street from me.  I have been a foster for doodles this past year and yet I could not help this dog. There is nothing like the helpless feeling I have experienced about the situation this poor dog has been in. My neighbors and I called animal control many times but the only thing they could do was educate the owner.  A long story and it came to a very sad ending last week. He was loose yet again and was almost hit several times before being caught by ac and about 10 other people who had joined in.  He was in terrible shape and was bleeding above his eye.  It is sad but I was thankful that he wasn't able to get back into his yard.  At least he will be fed and have a roof over his head for a short time.  I don't think he will be able to be adopted out.  He is afraid of people, no social skills, old and not one of those pretty dogs that people want for a family pet...........no owners came knocking on my door that evening looking for their dog......these people are well educated and lots of money.  No, I realize I do not know the whole story as to why they neglected their dog and as I have learned all to often it doesn't matter how much money a person has....... dogs can still get the short end of the stick.  This is coming from someone that used to feed grocery store kibble to all her pets and kept her dog out most of the day (a very long time ago - I'm old now...well almost 50:o)

[Jess and Pippin]

Laurie, I was not part of this discussion either. Taking an opposing viewpoint takes courage and a double dose of diplomacy on all parts.  We learned the hard way about puppy mill dogs.  We thought we had done our homework, but we were wrong.  Our first dog Sam (cavapoo) was from a back yard breeder, who I'm now positive was a front for a puppy mill in another part of our province. I contacted her to let her know about Sam's diagnosis and never heard from her again.  I'm sure she continued breeding from the same parents.  When Sam was 18 months old, he had his first grand mal seizure and we ended up having to have him put to sleep at 3 years old because he was seizing multiple times per day and nothing was working to help him.  It was a heartbreaking 2 years for all of us and even worse for our 2 kids.  A coworker of my husband is a responsible breeder who picked up on some red flags before we purchased Sam, and I ignored them.  She was so respectful in her comments, but I still felt hurt and stupid.  Thank you for standing up for something you believe in so strongly, and for this blog post.  Well said!

[Carol and Banjo]

They say every cloud has a silver lining.  I sincerely hope that this past week's discussions bring more good than bad to our DK community.

My own experience in finding a breeder was a long one and I thought I'd done my homework. From the time I first learned  about and subsequently fell in love Goldendoodles it has been an on-going process of learning.    Learning about dogs in general, feeding, training, living with and loving them.  Our quest to find a Goldendoodle led us down many different roads.  There are not an awful lot of Goldendoodle breeders in the New England area.  I found a few.  Of those 3, two had were selling their puppies in the $2K range.  One was selling hers for $1200!   Well, I don't need to tell you that's the one DH really liked!   I spoke with her and had serveral email "conversations" with her.  To my "uneducated" eyes she seemed wonderful!   We set a day to come down and see 2 puppies she had available at that time.   It was a freezing cold, snowy, icy day.  She brought both puppies into the living room.  I could see a barn and attached kennel from the window.  She didn't want to risk taking us out there because of the ice.  Her website described the well lit, clean, heated kennel where her breeding dogs were kept.  The mother and puppies were kept in the house (according to her). (Wink, Wink) Well, we fell in love with a little red goldendoodle (looked an awful lot like Banjo).  We spent a good deal of time with the puppy and talking to her.  She was quite skilled in avoiding our requests to see the puppy's mother.  Actually, she was very nice and we both felt very good about all we saw and learned.....except.....way in the back of my mind I had a niggling feeling.  My Dad always said..."If it seems to good to be true....it probably is.".   This just seemed to good to be true.  How could she be selling her puppies for so much less?  The older pup she had  was selling for $700.    Before visiting her I did search after seach on her kennel...never coming up with anything good or bad.  The day after our visit I did a Google search (who knew it was better than Yahoo's search) and "Oh My"!    It  seems she had been closed down (she could only keep a certain number of dogs) and was even featured on local TV.  Over crowding, selling unhealthy puppies, pictures taken by a neighbor showed filthy kennels, empty water bowls....      My first instinct was we have to go down and "save" that puppy!!!   In my mind he was already ours anyways....we'd fallen in love with him.  This discovery led to more reading on the internet...backyard breeders....puppymills.....I knew we couldn't give this woman a dime.  

We eventually found a breeder we felt good about.   Flash forward.......

DK has taught me SO much!   If in the future we decide to get another dog.....AT LAST....FINALLY... I feel that I can find  a really good breeder.    Will we get the perfect dog?  With no problems?   Maybe.....maybe not....but we'll have increased the odds AND we'll have the knowledge that we didn't support "bad practice".

 I've had dogs on and off over the course of my life.   Banjo is the first "Love of My Life" dog.   He is as much a part of me as my human kids.   Because of Banjo, I can no longer look at a dog (any dog) and dismiss it as "just a dog".     

Thanks ever so much Laurie for your thoughtful post.

[F, Calla & Luca]

Joanne, don't move. Try to change things, see below. And yes, discussions are a much better format for this sort of thing.

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

I really wish we could have taken this to the discussion column because there is still so much to say here.  A good, once a year discussion with no names, no breeders, no members.

Just an informative discussion on the topic MILLS

After all, several million puppies a year come from mills. 

I'm all for picking up and moving.  Maybe someday

[F, Calla & Luca]

I guess Karen that you and I know people should not leave because of hurt feelings in either case. People can get over hurt feelings if the pros outweigh the cons. DK is not all fun and games but so much more. But yes losing long term members certainly is a big loss.  Sometimes new people do not realize how much, people, such as you, have given in terms of time and effort to this site. Or how kind and helpful so many of our members are. I hope no one would leave before they have a chance to know how much this site has to offer. Yet as I said below, there are some people who advocate for some things, such as puppy mills, who we do not want or need. Sometimes though we may be harsh in the way we try to educate, such as in the case of the puppy who was left in feces and urine, and we need to beware of that. Support, education, kindness--a good motto.