My Deepest Apologies! -Copy of and starting a discussion re: my comment on 'Dogs Do Not Live in the Past"

[Adrianne Matzkin]

Dear DK Family,
I must apologize to you for allowing this discussion to have even started. I must be suffering from New Foster Mommy Syndrome (I can't say New Mommy because I am not his Mommy and cannot start thinking that way). I do not usually air my feelings that way much less in such a public forum and I apologize for any discomfort I may caused anyone.
Please accept my apologies and have a fantastic day!
Adrianne


Dear DK members,


I don't normally start a heated discussion in person or in my virtual home but I am very upset with this comment made by Denise after she read what I wrote with the video of Mickey. If by chance I misunderstood Densie's comment I apologize now - but I don't think I did.

This is how it started.
Under the video (by the way if you haven't seen it yet he is too darned cute to miss)
Comment by Adrianne Matzkin 14 hours ago
This was taken on day 2. Notice how he sits in front of the mirror - I assume he thinks it is one of his siblings. That was his 'home base' for 3 days. He doesn't sit there at all anymore!!

Cesar Milan says dogs do not live in the past. We humans do. I saw that first hand. He is right!


Comment by LuvLittleAbby 14 hours ago Yep

Comment by HANNAH & HONEY'S PAGE 14 hours ago
If dogs don't live in the past, how do they remember...how do they know words like Doggy Park, ByeBye, how to tell you when they want out or want water. Why when we train them do we need to be repetative with commands? Any dog will forget something that has not become repetative to them.


Denise,
Are you trying to pick an arguement with me? I don't think that a video taken of and with pure joy was the place for you to write this comment.

Where are you going with this comment?

Are you trying to say that the crappy living conditions Mickey spent the ENTIRE first 4+ months of his life weren't long enough to leave scars? or that things at AH weren't that bad so he doesn't have any horrors to forget? What do you feel constitutes the time frame before a dog can no longer leave the mistreatment, no vet visits, enough food, grass under their feet, a belly rub, ear scratch in the past and it becomes part of them where they can never forget?

This little guy spent the first 4 months of his life in "Skippy's hell hole of a puppy mill and then the next month in a shelter. He is 5 lbs underweight! That is 20% of his body weight!! He has gained 1/2 lb in 5 days - which just shows that both places were no picnic! He is the runt of the litter so I am sure that no one at the shelter had the time to make sure he was getting enough food, because they were overcome with rescues from Skippy. To be that underweight didn't happen in just 4 weeks. It started well before he got to the shelter - say the 3 months before that? The day he was born?

By the way - I have been meaning to ask why do you refer to him as 'Skippy' - with all that I have read I never heard him being referred to other than 'Skip'? I know that you had legal issues with him I think with Honey (sorry if I got that wrong) and your being able to spay her or not but it seems that you refer to him in a friendly manner. I sincerely hope that your legal issues with him have been solved and that both your pups are now spayed.

Again, I apologize if I misunderstood your comments but I want this out in the open and open for a family discussion.

DK Family, please let me know what you think - did I misunderstand and just being a protective foster mom?
Thanks,
Adrianne

[Leslie and Halas]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot... I'm with you on the idea that your post was just to share a great video and point out how far Mickey has come already. It's really a wonderful story. If someone felt like picking one sentence out of your post and debating it, they could have started a separate discussion instead of raining on the Mickey parade. Just keep up your great work and know that you're making a huge difference in Mickey's life.

[Leslie and Halas]

I had trouble with the video, too, but I'm going to try again tomorrow. But from what you've said, it sounds like you've already made a lot of progress with Mickey, and I think that's amazing. I do think dogs can remember some things that have happened to them, but I don't think they dwell on those things, especially if those things are horrible like in Mickey's case. I think Mickey is very resilient, and he'll happily try to forget his past and live for today with the love and support of a good family. I'm sure there will always be certain things that remind him of his days at AH, but even then, I think there will come a day where he quickly moves past those reminders and just enjoys his new home. In other words, I think he will live in the now, instead of dwelling on his past. It may take him awhile to get there, but you've already obviously seen him heading in that direction.

[Nancy, Ned, Clancy, and Charlie]

I was able to access the video and loved every precious bit of it. I love Mickey's long legs. If someone wanted to make a negative comment that wasn't the place, but a discussion of whether dogs have "a past" or not is quite interesting. My opinion is that dogs take life at face value and accept it - whatever it is. I think that they remember as a Gestalt not a detailed memoir. Ned knows his sister - it is obvious when they get together. My Springer is afraid of feathers - Why? We don't have a clue,( but we have our suspicions). However he is not afraid of birds. If he had no past memory, he would not approach a lone feather with such caution and trepidation AND if the wind moves it - oh boy - he jumps back like he was burned.
Isn't all of the socialization and exposure to new noises and situations that we do, building memories that alleviate fears?
PS - I know why Skippy is used - ever heard of sarcasm? At our house the world revolves around sarcasm and hyperbole. Maybe it is just our odd sense of humor. We native "SoCalians" can be a straaannnnnnge bunch. Or maybe it is because DH is named Skip - Skipper or Skippy as some people call him.

[Linda,Yankee & Finn]

I couldn't access it either!

[HANNAH 8/2/07 & HONEY 7/2/08]

All I did was ask a simple question...excues me if you think otherwise and before you start jumping down someones throat..lighten up...you's are the ones with the PROBLEM...not ME....Futhermore....I could not acess that Video so if anyone is mean spirited ummmm better start looking in the MIRROR...lol.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I agree that certain things stay with them; my Jack responds to certain places or behaviors in a way that tells me he has experienced something negative connected to that situation before. But I also think that they do live in the moment, and focus on what is happening now. And either way, we are all happy for Mickey's progress, or should be, lol.

[Lynne Fowler-Oodles of Doodles]

I don't know if dogs have memory like we do where they can access and "remember" a specific incident, but certainly repetitive words, actions or people are learned. Whether it's habit or not, who knows. But I do know that really bad experiences, like what was experienced in a PM or abuse situation can stay with them for a long time. Ginger will still resource guard when she's not feeling well or tired and Jack hates confined places. Both are residual from 2+ years ago. Ginger will lower her head and hide with strange men, and she has not had that for almost 3 years. So something stays with them long after their horrors are over.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I think there are two separate issues here. The first issue is whether dogs live in the moment or dwell in the past. The other issue is whether the comment about dogs living in the past was an apprpropriate comment to make in response to a video.
Most experts agree that dogs live in the moment. We are always told that you should never scold or correct a dog for something he has done while you were not home, say for going potty, because he doesn't know what he is being scolded for. If you catch him in the act, then you can correct him as it is occurring, and he makes the connection. The fact that a dog associates a certain word with something, such as "walk", doesn't mean that the dog remembers what "walk" means...it is a conditioned response which does take a lot of repetition to become embedded. Hand signals work the same way, they have nothing to do with memory as we understand it. Although nobody knows for sure, this is the accepted wisdom from most experts.
The second issue is, was it appropriate to make a negative comment in response to a happy foster mom's video and celebration of a dog's ability to live in the moment? In my opinion, it comes off as a mean-spirited way of raining on Adrianne's parade. Adrianne was not asking for people's opinions on whether Mickey remembers his horrible past, she was showing us a video of Mickey's progress, and asking us to be happy with her.

[LuvMyAbby&Kaela]

As you know I am a total believer in Cesars mantra that 'dogs do not live in the past'. I have seen it over and over. He has rehabilitated (thats what he does "rehabilitate") many many dogs. Dogs live in the moment. It is us humans that find it really difficult to shed our baggage to the point of no return sometimes letting it destroy us. Not a dog. That is the beauty of the soul of a dog. Everyday is fresh and new. They truly have the ability to let bygones be bygones because they have the inablility to hold a grudge. They can be cured. If you think about the unfortunate beginnings of some dogs and the wonderful end results (we have all seen real wonderdogs on TV and RL who have come from horrid circumstances etc...) you can see how resilient they are, they never have a permanently stained soul.

[Lynne Fowler-Oodles of Doodles]

Adie, IMHO you are justified as we are in questioning her motives. The problem is you cannot win with some people. It is always someone else and not them. You know in your heart what you are doing is right and who can figure where her mind is, but to let her or anyone stress you out, gives them power. Take away her power by not letting her get to you.