Labradoodle & Goldendoodle Forum
Should Members Be Allowed to Promote their Breeder in our Forum?
[UPDATE: Since I started this thread, I've come to a decision on the matter that you will find below at the bottom of my discussion topic in bold.]
Hey DK Members,
The question that is the title of this discussion is something I'm struggling with right now. Here's the background to this dilemma:
Because I want this site to be free from SPAM as well as unfettered by constant ads or solicitations from members in the guise of discussions or blogs, our Community Guidelines have explicitly forbidden breeders from posting puppy or dog advertisements anywhere except on their own page or in the Labradoodle Puppies for Sale or Goldendoodle Puppies for Sale group (where they must answer questions about their program in each posting). We also forbid other forms of free advertising of one's own goods/services.
But what's unique about puppy/dog ads is that these deal with living creatures--not just a dog
painting, Les Poochs brush, or handbag with doodle embroidery. And in a world with numerous puppy mills and BYB's that can easily fool buyers when all they have to go by is a website, I want there to be some standards about such ads on DK. While I don't and can't do background checks on breeders and the phrase "buyer beware" should always apply because people need to do their own research first...I do try to raise expectations and educate. I ask that important questions about each breeder's program be answered in the aforementioned groups for three main reasons:
1) To discourage BYB's and puppy mills from posting ads
2) So breeders see the high standards that others are following
3) So buyers know there are high standards of testing/warranties and hopefully change their own buying criteria to reflect this (education!).
THUS...the reason I have chosen to keep doggy sales confined to certain groups with rules (not to mention ads are not fitting for a discussion forum).
So here is the dilemma that has been brought to my attention. When members post in the forum asking for recommendations on breeders, is it FAIR for members to pipe in with a plug for THEIR breeder and a link to that breeder's site when many of our active breeder members aren't allowed to also say they have some puppies available? It took me a while to see this point, but I am leaning toward 'not fair.'
Then what are we to do? How do we make this fair yet not become totally fast and loose with allowing ads in the forum? I don't want to get any stricter, so here are two options I'm considering and I'd like your input in general as well as which option you think makes more sense or if you see a THIRD option.
(Option A)
Neither Breeders NOR Non-breeder members may post breeder promos or links to breeder sites in the main forum. But members can discuss their breeder privately as they please. And of course members may always point to our article on What to Look for IN a Breeder as well as to the puppy sales groups. (not my favorite as it keeps education out of the main forum and makes things quite restrictive)
(Option B)
If someone has a breeder recommendation then they can write up a recommendation in the Owner Recommended Breeder group and LINK to said recommendation in the discussion at hand or if they cannot fill in the form adequately (due to not having been to the breeder's home, etc) then they can invite their breeder to post in the puppy sales group and then said member can post a LINK to the ad in the group in the discussion at hand. This at least utilizes the groups we already have and continues to do the education I intend.
(Option C)
Continue as usual but ALLOW breeder members to post to any recommendation they have in the Owner Recommended Breeder group AND to their ad in the puppy sales group on DK
I prefer either option B or C or a combo of both to be fair PLUS it utilizes current groups on DK and involves education of members.
And now for your thoughts on this breeder ad/member promoting breeders issue...
[NOTE: Here is the conclusion I reached...
"As I've thought about this more and read all your replies and arguments for the various options...it seems that the most fair and impartial is to go with option A. So let me reiterate what this will mean:
1) Neither members nor breeders may post breeder recommendations anywhere but in the Owner Recommended Breeder group and those recommendations, of course, must fit in with that group's rules/regulations.
2) Neither members nor breeders may post puppy/dog birth announcements or sales notices anywhere but in the Labradoodle Puppies for Sale or Goldendoodle Puppies for Sale group (there is an Australian Labradoodle Puppies for Sale group too I believe).
3) So when responding to an inquiry about a breeder or 'what breeder has a small, red male doodle for sale?" type posts, please direct the person to one of those groups listed above and/or to our What To Look for In a Breeder article.
4) IF you have a breeder recommendation you can:
A: talk to that person privately by leaving a comment on their page or by private message.
B: write up a breeder recommendation in the Owner Recommended Breeder group
C: invite your breeder to post an ad/puppy announcement in the sales group
SO...when a member starts a post asking for breeder recommendations or similar topic, please direct them to the above groups and engage them in a conversation about What to Look for in a Breeder (regardless of the article) and educate them rather than merely giving them a recommendation for YOUR breeder. Let's teach them WHY some breeders are worth the money and what would make a breeder NOT worth recommending rather than just link them to XYZ Kennels.
Our Community Guidelines will soon be updated to reflect this change."]
Hey DK Members,
The question that is the title of this discussion is something I'm struggling with right now. Here's the background to this dilemma:
Because I want this site to be free from SPAM as well as unfettered by constant ads or solicitations from members in the guise of discussions or blogs, our Community Guidelines have explicitly forbidden breeders from posting puppy or dog advertisements anywhere except on their own page or in the Labradoodle Puppies for Sale or Goldendoodle Puppies for Sale group (where they must answer questions about their program in each posting). We also forbid other forms of free advertising of one's own goods/services.
But what's unique about puppy/dog ads is that these deal with living creatures--not just a dog
painting, Les Poochs brush, or handbag with doodle embroidery. And in a world with numerous puppy mills and BYB's that can easily fool buyers when all they have to go by is a website, I want there to be some standards about such ads on DK. While I don't and can't do background checks on breeders and the phrase "buyer beware" should always apply because people need to do their own research first...I do try to raise expectations and educate. I ask that important questions about each breeder's program be answered in the aforementioned groups for three main reasons:
1) To discourage BYB's and puppy mills from posting ads
2) So breeders see the high standards that others are following
3) So buyers know there are high standards of testing/warranties and hopefully change their own buying criteria to reflect this (education!).
THUS...the reason I have chosen to keep doggy sales confined to certain groups with rules (not to mention ads are not fitting for a discussion forum).
So here is the dilemma that has been brought to my attention. When members post in the forum asking for recommendations on breeders, is it FAIR for members to pipe in with a plug for THEIR breeder and a link to that breeder's site when many of our active breeder members aren't allowed to also say they have some puppies available? It took me a while to see this point, but I am leaning toward 'not fair.'
Then what are we to do? How do we make this fair yet not become totally fast and loose with allowing ads in the forum? I don't want to get any stricter, so here are two options I'm considering and I'd like your input in general as well as which option you think makes more sense or if you see a THIRD option.
(Option A)
Neither Breeders NOR Non-breeder members may post breeder promos or links to breeder sites in the main forum. But members can discuss their breeder privately as they please. And of course members may always point to our article on What to Look for IN a Breeder as well as to the puppy sales groups. (not my favorite as it keeps education out of the main forum and makes things quite restrictive)
(Option B)
If someone has a breeder recommendation then they can write up a recommendation in the Owner Recommended Breeder group and LINK to said recommendation in the discussion at hand or if they cannot fill in the form adequately (due to not having been to the breeder's home, etc) then they can invite their breeder to post in the puppy sales group and then said member can post a LINK to the ad in the group in the discussion at hand. This at least utilizes the groups we already have and continues to do the education I intend.
(Option C)
Continue as usual but ALLOW breeder members to post to any recommendation they have in the Owner Recommended Breeder group AND to their ad in the puppy sales group on DK
I prefer either option B or C or a combo of both to be fair PLUS it utilizes current groups on DK and involves education of members.
And now for your thoughts on this breeder ad/member promoting breeders issue...
[NOTE: Here is the conclusion I reached...
"As I've thought about this more and read all your replies and arguments for the various options...it seems that the most fair and impartial is to go with option A. So let me reiterate what this will mean:
1) Neither members nor breeders may post breeder recommendations anywhere but in the Owner Recommended Breeder group and those recommendations, of course, must fit in with that group's rules/regulations.
2) Neither members nor breeders may post puppy/dog birth announcements or sales notices anywhere but in the Labradoodle Puppies for Sale or Goldendoodle Puppies for Sale group (there is an Australian Labradoodle Puppies for Sale group too I believe).
3) So when responding to an inquiry about a breeder or 'what breeder has a small, red male doodle for sale?" type posts, please direct the person to one of those groups listed above and/or to our What To Look for In a Breeder article.
4) IF you have a breeder recommendation you can:
A: talk to that person privately by leaving a comment on their page or by private message.
B: write up a breeder recommendation in the Owner Recommended Breeder group
C: invite your breeder to post an ad/puppy announcement in the sales group
SO...when a member starts a post asking for breeder recommendations or similar topic, please direct them to the above groups and engage them in a conversation about What to Look for in a Breeder (regardless of the article) and educate them rather than merely giving them a recommendation for YOUR breeder. Let's teach them WHY some breeders are worth the money and what would make a breeder NOT worth recommending rather than just link them to XYZ Kennels.
Our Community Guidelines will soon be updated to reflect this change."]
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Dreamydoodles Northwest on
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I think people should be allowed to post links and opinions anywhere on the website that they think would be relevant. I've been a webmaster and community moderator for 10 years and I've run successful and long running websites/communities and I've never seen this as an issue. This is actually the first forum or community I've been a member at that doesn't allow open url posting or linking. This is the basics of freedom of speech. I'd say no spamming or flaming allowed and we all know the difference at this point as too what is spamming and what is a valid link suggestion. I'd say as long as they're not trying to sell Viagra or beating up on a particular breeder and then linking them and if it helps to educate people about a good breeder in their area then they should be allowed to recommend a breeders websites... as long as like I said they're not spamming or flaming.. You sometimes just have to trust the maturity level of the people in a group. I doubt a legitimate Doodle breeder is going to want to come off like a spammer in this community. In most cases the group will actually police itself or just take what they need and leave the rest. This is the web after all. We all know how to read through information and take what we need at this point. I don't believe any forum should be moderated so strictly as to have an actual "police force" or community sheriff who's actively looking for illegal website linking or breeder recommendations. That to me (in my humble opinion) is insanity and I love this forum so please don't get me wrong but you wanted to hear your members opinions.. Now this is where it becomes your right to take it or leave it. :) Keep up the good work you have a great community here with a lot of really great people. Maybe you really can let go and Trust in their ability to act correctly.
I'm not exactly sure what the moderators think will happen by allowing this or what they're afraid of by allowing this but I bet your worst fears would not come true. Good Luck and make the right choice based on what your members want.
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Permalink Reply by Adina P on
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There are legitimate concerns regarding allowing breeders to advertise themselves openly...check out the responses of others to see what those are.
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Permalink Reply by Mary Steward on
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I think option B is best. That way if you wish to find a breeder that was recommended, you know where to look.And really, if their breeder is good, they could always place their own info in the breeders section, maybe with a star beside it as a member preferred breeder or whatever.
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Permalink Reply by Sharon Austin on
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I have to go with option B. As we are not able to do any research into breeders, the only way is to get information is from members who are able to give personal recommendations. As this breed seems to becoming very popular, we should continue to just celebrate our furry babies. It would defeat the pupose of this happy website if someone ends up buying some poor pup from these lowlife puppy mills.
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Permalink Reply by Allyson, Peri & Taquito on
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I think the ORBGroup can be a useful tool, but I do think to post a breeder, the owner must have visited the breeder's house. It is nice to provide at least a starting place for someone researching doodle breeders. I think we could also start referring people to the various breeder groups on here. My breeder has a large group on DK - I would think someone interested in my breeder could find her listed on the ORBGroup and then check out some references by contacting members of my breeder's group on DK. That is confusing but does that make sense? Just thoughts....
I agree that putting a recommendation into a main forum discussion can be misleading. I think I did that once and realized that I should just contact that person directly. I also know that my girl is still a puppy and could develop health issues over time, BUT, that can always happen even with all of the correct tests being conducted and passed. So, if Peri gets hip dysplasia in one year, I would definitely go back to my breeder to get my refund, HOWEVER, I would certainly not think my breeder is a bad breeder given Peri's parents had excellent test results (I have seen them). Just adding that in response to comments about owners recommending breeders before their puppies are adults.
I also hated seeing the recent posting and discussion about the breeder that denied someone a puppy - too subjective IMO.
So I agree: keep it off the main forum!
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Permalink Reply by John Cermak on
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I agree with B or C> I am a proponent of customer service and letting the message get out. If there is an unscrupulous breeder out there, let the messages reflect it. After all, we are talking about living creatures, not a GPS device.
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Permalink Reply by Nina, Phil, Harlow & Lacey on
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Option A for me.
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Permalink Reply by Cheryl & Matey & Checkers on
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I prefer option A. I have had both the best and worst experiences with 2 breeders and feel that the discussion should be private when recommending a breeder. I would be uncomfortable seeing a breeder that I had a less than OK experience with being promoted in advertisements on this site.
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As I've thought about this more and read all your replies and arguments for the various options...it seems that the most fair and impartial is to go with option A. So let me reiterate what this will mean:
1) Neither members nor breeders may post breeder recommendations anywhere but in the Owner Recommended Breeder group and those recommendations, of course, must fit in with that group's rules/regulations.
2) Neither members nor breeders may post puppy/dog birth announcements or sales notices anywhere but in the Labradoodle Puppies for Sale or Goldendoodle Puppies for Sale group (there is an Australian Labradoodle Puppies for Sale group too I believe).
3) So when responding to an inquiry about a breeder or 'what breeder has a small, red male doodle for sale?" type posts, please direct the person to one of those groups listed above and/or to our What To Look for In a Breeder article.
4) IF you have a breeder recommendation you can:
A: talk to that person privately by leaving a comment on their page or by private message.
B: write up a breeder recommendation in the Owner Recommended Breeder group
C: invite your breeder to post an ad/puppy announcement in the sales group
SO...when a member starts a post asking for breeder recommendations or similar topic, please direct them to the above groups and engage them in a conversation about What to Look for in a Breeder (regardless of the article) and educate them rather than merely giving them a recommendation for YOUR breeder. Let's teach them WHY some breeders are worth the money and what would make a breeder NOT worth recommending rather than just link them to XYZ Kennels.
Our Community Guidelines will soon be updated to reflect this change.
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Permalink Reply by Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle on
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I think this is an excellent decision, Adina. Thank you for taking the time to carefully consider this issue and for coming up with a logical and reasonable policy that's fair to everyone.
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Permalink Reply by AndySharon BoomerShaynaMariner on
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Adina -
I believe you made the correct decision. Thank you for letting there be open discussion.
Andy
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Permalink Reply by Leslie and Halas on
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I like this solution. I think it's fair to everyone, and should be easy to understand and follow.
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