Considering a doodle litter

[Kat]

  I have a beautiful standard poodle bitch that I plan on breeding to another poodle later. I also am watching a gorgeous border collie boy for a few months. My bitch just went into heat and I'm seriously thinking about allowing the 2 to breed. The owner of the boy is interested as she got him to stud. He has a really good pedigree, really healthy lines. His parents were both health tested but he's still a little young for OFA. My poodle is also from clean lines just less impressive. There are show dogs in her lines but she wouldn't do well in the ring as she is a little long for her height. She is light apricot (mom red, dad white) her color varies in shade a little along her body and ears. The boy has a white head with freckles, brown eyes and dark sable on his body. He's long hair and has the most delightful disposition. He's the calmest BC I've ever met that didn't require hours of running to relax. My GSD is more active than him. The poodle is calm also just has a lot of sassy attitude.

 They are both so beautiful with the most delightful temperaments and are so smart that it is tempting. In the near future he will be moving across the country so if I want to breed them it is this heat or never. His owner has agreed to split expenses if we need to. We aren't sure what we should sell them for though. Since a standard of her quality sells for $1500, we were thinking 1/2. The pups should be exceptional. What is the average doodle litter size when mom is a std poodle?

 I've already researched everything I possibly can on pregnancy and whelping and since I'm home all the time that won't be a problem.

[1io1xas2wgid6]

I am not a breeder, just a Doodle lover. I have a Goldendoodle and a Labradoodle. I have noticed what seems to me to be a trend toward riding the coattails of the Doodle popularity by breeding a Poodle to most any other breed and making up a name that ends in Doodle. When I think Doodle I don't think of Bordoodle, I think Labradoodle. I was quite the Doodle purist for a while and even had a hard time with Goldendoodles. My friend and I have a name for what you are considering. We call them OopsyDoodles. My brother-in-law recently bought a Sheep Dog Poodle .... ShiDoodle??? What next? I have read as much as I can find to read on Labradoodles and they were originally bred in Australia 25 to 30 years ago to be service dogs for people with allergies who might not otherwise be able to have a service dog. The reason for choosing those two breeds was because of their similar hunting backround, temprament, and intelligence. It didn't make sense to them to breed dogs with such opposing traits. Hunting vs Herding. They almost work against each other. The Australian Doodles have a few other breeds in their blood line that were introduced for specific traits, but all were hunting retrieving type breeds. The goal was to develop an intelligent breed that was easily adaptable to any situation, easy to train, and wouldn't shed so disabled people with dog allergies could finally have service dogs. I don't know anything about whelping and raising puppies, but it would seem to me that the rat experience is a whole different animal, right? The way you talk about breeding the rats, it sounds like it was something you really loved. Is it possible that you love animals and love that process of new animal life so much that you see an opportunity to re-visit that rat experience with the dogs. You say yourself that the BC is "working bred" which means to me that he must have very strong herding genes in his bloodline. If that gene is dominant in puppies, I would think, based on the information in some of the other responses, that you have the potential for some very hard to manage pups. If your Poodle is not spayed, there will be other opportunities to breed her. Maybe you could take some time and do some more comprehensive research on Poodle crosses. You mention that it could be a disaster. Why risk it?? Do you own a Labradoodle or a Goldendoodle? If not, have you had the opportunity to interact with any? Just remember, any breed crossed with a Poodle does not necessarily equal a Doodle.

[Lorraine Bromley]

Hello, I love border collies on farms. I have never met a pure bred border collie that would thrive in an apartment. Is your poodle a registered pure bred? That would be one requirment of a possible owner to have both pure bred dogs. All health testing must be completed and not pending prior to breeding. Testing for any and all possible genetic issues for both breeds.
Our doodles have been bred over many years to have certain traits(teddy bear look) They have been bred as both breeds are of the same background with similiar working histories. The coats on these doodles can vary from excessive shedding to non shedding. There is no such thing as a non allergenic dog. Having poodles bred into other breeds doesn't make them non shed or allergenic. All puppies are gorguous. Our Breeder has bred australian shepard poodle mixes. She will not sell to people who do not have the time and physical stamina for the execise needs as well as the land to use. They are a high maintenance dog. Very smart. great dogs if you meet those criteria. She sells alot to farm families that want their dog to have less shedding issues. That was the goal of the creation of doodles to create a non shed working dog.
I doubt you will even read this post as you are likely tired of everyone here telling you of their concerns with your idea and how you plan to implement it. I was hoping that the fact you were here and asking questions that you were very open to the feedback that you would recieve. You have received good advice especially about the breeder contract and links to the BC Forums. The rescue groups all have very valid concerns. Because the area you live in is so poorly run in that respect it may be an idea to take the money that you would save on breeding this pair into spaying or help setting up a spaying program that you seem familiar with from other areas. It is good that the rescues are taking in strays from other areas to help with adoption other than leaving their facility empty. I don't think that time is of the essence as he still needs his testing and it has been a common practice to ship semen very successfully. Would it possible be a better thing to breed her to a poodle for her first litter to see how she handles the whole production as well as the type of mother she is before experimanting with another breed bringing in unknown hurdles?
To me it seems as if you have made up your mind in what you plan to do. I say this as the way I read the posts seems as though all the concerns that are brought up you try and explain why you already know these things. I haven't seen that you have answered our concerns in this combination? Have you done any more research to see if your goal is attainable with these two breeds? I think you want a smart laid back Bc with curly hair that could do service work? Have you spoken to the service trainers in your area to see whether they are in need of service animals at the moment. What type of dog do they need per patient as needs do differ dependant on the disability. Most facilities do not accept donations of dogs with out meeting their stringent requirements. If you could maybe post any answers to these questions and with a bit more specifics involved so that members could help you with your research that would help you to become more educated about what you are looking at CREATING and WHY and what possible RAMIFICATIONS you will be left with. I doubt you want your reputation as a breeder in your area to be a negative one.

[Noble Vestal Labradoodles]

You have much bigger issues to be concerned with than the average doodle litter size! What health testing do both of the parents have. Do both dogs meet their breed's breed standard. What type of health warranty will you offer. Will you ES&N or place on contract. Will you meet your state and county's licensing laws to breed your dogs. What will you do with pups you can not place. There is no marketing being done by any other breeder so you will have to market on your own which is expensive will your local market be able to ingest 10 mix breed puppies that are virtually unknown in type and temperament. What are your local shelters fines for dropping off puppies, my guess is you will need their help because you will not be able to place these pups. There is no market for them. People can go to the shelter and find a mix for $75. Your pups will not fall into the marketing category that the doodle already has.

A new breed will require a study of the health issue plaguing the combined breeds, protocol for testing to insure puppies are not affected by the health issues.

A registry with a data base to track offspring's health and conformation.

A set of standards to measure the success of the combined breeds. Professionals who know how to judge them.

A good breeder setting out with the ideals to make a new breed will have to be strong but open enough to see their idea may be a failure. This happened with the Labradoodle in Australia. The mix of the Lab and Poodle was not a suitable combination to continue to breed to produce non shedding companions that were service worthy.

[Kat]

Although we really thought of it we didn't really put the 2 together purposely but it seems we might have noticed her heat too late. When I noticed she was in heat, it was a light brown discharge that then turned bloody, now it is getting lighter (less discharge not too much change in color) and he's barely interested in her when she goes by anymore. He's more interested in food than sniffing her now while before if I brought her through the room him nose was practically glued to her back end. She also seems to smell a little less strong than she did a few days ago when it was almost overwhelming changing her diaper. The vet told me I would notice her heat right away because she is a light color. Another person said I should slap the vet cause some bitches are OCD about keeping themselves clean so you might not notice if you aren't expecting it. Since her previous heat was silent we didn't know when to expect the next or I would have separated long before it was expected to start and watched her carefully for signs of it. When he arrived they were being very friendly, he was sniffing her a lot but they were playing and I never saw him attempt to mount her. We just figured the sniffing was normal as all the dogs were interested in sniffing his. Then suddenly she got fearful of him after unsupervised outside play. She was even hiding and shaking when all 3 of them were having indoor playtime. Then after a couple days she recovered and they went back to playing chase, her favorite game. So we have a feeling we caught her at the end of her heat and we're a bit too late. My spayed shepherd had been sniffing her a bit more than usual before he came here but I figured it was normal as she usually sniffs her after she's gone outside.

[Lorraine Bromley]

Hopefully you caught her in time and that no harm was done. Now if you chart it somewhere (are they like women on a specific cycle?) and know the signs of her heat and that you didn't neccessarily see it soon enough you will know for next heat.
Have you done some more research into breeding her? It sounds like the breeder that you got her from isn't really in a position to mentor you at this time. It might be a good idea to visit breeders of poodles in your area and on the internet and start doing some visiting to thier set ups and find someone that would be willing to quide you. You can likely get a list of registered breeders from the kennel club, they are always looking for excellent breeding stock that fits their conformity from what I hear.
Then broaden your search for Collie breeders so that you can compare their breeding issues with the poodles to see if there are potential problems that would affect crossing the two.
I do hope that you came here openly and honestly to get advice and guidance in how to go about this and also are open enough to hear what people are saying even though it may not be what you want to hear. No one here would tell you not to breed these two on a whim or for selfish reasons. Please heed thier advice. I think you have gotten some good support. The general consensous is not to do it, for many reasons. All very valid. I hope that does help you realize it may be a bad idea. If you do want to go ahead I hope you have taken into consideration the effort to create a new mix breed that will entail the rest of your life in creating and perfecting and standardizing the breed as this is not done over night. And will go about it in a scientific and thourough manner using as much input from experts as possible.
It would be nice to hear from you on what your decision if any you have made. It may take bravery on your part to share it if it does turn out to be the unpopular choice of mixing the breeds. But that is likely the reaction you will get from the general public as well and thick skin will be necessary.
We do hope we have given you food for thought. All to help you your dog and others that will be involved in the future.
Again, my personal opinion is that I hope you caught her in time.