Difference between intelligence and trainability...

[Kelli, Fenway, & Dustin Pedroia]

I've been thinking about this for some time and actually wanted some other opinions on this.  As some of you know I  have two doodles.  I have an almost 2 year old medium F1b female labradoodle named Fenway and a just turned one very large (standard) F1 male goldendoodle named Dustin.  Since day one we started working on basic obedience with both of our dogs.  Fenway always picked up these type of skills very quickly.  She could sit, down, stay, etc. at a very early age and is still very good with these commands.  Dustin was a little tougher with these basic commands, but is our trick dog.  If I can figure out a way to teach him a trick he's more than eager to learn it. He's our pleaser!!  Fenway looks at us like we're crazy when we try to teach her a trick.  She actually acts like tricks are totally beneath her.  This being said, I feel that Fenway, our girl, is the more intelligent of the two.  We often joke that she's too intelligent for her own good because she seems to think about commands sometimes and the consequences before actually complying with them.  Dustin is still very smart, but not nearly on the level with Fenway, but he puts her to shame when it comes to following commands very promptly and performing tricks.  So I ask all of you, do you feel like there is a difference between intelligence and trainability?  Is this just a personality thing or perhaps a labradoodle/goldendoodle difference??  I guess it's not necessary for Fenway to know tricks, but I just find it impossible to believe that she can't learn them when she can figure out so many other things.  What's the deal?

[Ginny Nightingale]

I have the same exact situation with my tow. Lyric is big and goofy and will do anything I ask--trainable and happy to please. Matilda, my smaller doodle, is very smart. I have had dogs all my life and none have been as human-like as Mattie. I can say whole sentences to her and she seems to get it. She learns fast but only does things if she thinks "it is worth it"--in other words--there is a treat involved. She is smart enough to think for herself and decide which commands are important. All the basics she does quickly, but tricks? Not so fast...

[Kelli, Fenway, & Dustin Pedroia]

I know exactly what you mean. I can tell Fenway to go get in bed and she'll hop in the bed or go get in the tub and she'll hop in the tub. Certain words I say in conversation she even picks up on. It's crazy how smart she is. I can literally see her reasoning things out in her head when she's feeling stubborn and doesn't want to do what she's told. I've never seen anything like it, but as far as being an easy dog, Dustin wins that hands down!!! Big goofy and willing to please!

[F, Calla & Luca]

Absolutely. I think intelligence,which we've talked about before is an ability to learn and figure things out. Trainability, of course takes some intelligence but also a willingness or compliance.. A really intelligent dog will learn what it can get away with, or whether the reward, be it treat or praise, is worth the effort.

[Kelli, Fenway, & Dustin Pedroia]

That's right on the money wth Fenway. Thanks for answering!

[Linda and Murphy]

I totally agree with you, Caitlin. I had 1 female dog that was extremely intelligent but she was not interested in being trained.She made me certain why female dogs are called bitches.

[Natasha]

There is absolutely a difference!

A trainable dog can be persuaded. Food? Ball? Please you? Sure, what do you want me to do?

An intelligent dog will determine the point of what you're asking and whether or not there is an alternative reward that is more fun.

Case in point. There's a lizard - "Come."

A trainable dog will come. An intelligent dog will connect the following: Lizards are a lot of fun, human wants me to come, the reward of coming is not going to be as rewarding as chasing the lizard, the punishment of not coming is less important to me than the fun of the lizard. Get the lizard.

Rouser is, fortunately or unfortunately, in the intelligence camp. While a submissive dog, he has a stubborn (oh, sorry, passively resistant) streak and he will do everything he can to get whatever reward is in his sights and even try to please us at the same time.

What irritates me is that he knows when he's breaking the rules. Example, when we're doing long down stays in training, he'll get up, race to one of the other owner's bags, steal the ball out of the bag, then go right back to the spot that he was in and lay back down. It's not that he doesn't understand that he's supposed to stay. It's not that he gets confused and comes (like some of the other dogs). It's that he saw an owner put the prized orange squeaky ball that the other dog was playing with before class away and he wants it so while all the other dogs are doing what they're supposed to, he's going to get the ball and THEN he'll down stay. UGH!

The challenge is to constantly put complex asks together to keep the intelligent dog thinking that training is fun. Frankly, that's a challenge and a lot of fun when you're the trainer, too.

[Kelli, Fenway, & Dustin Pedroia]

That makes sense. I guess I'll need to get more creative with Fenway to get her to do what I want. It's so frustrating sometimes and I find myself wishing she was more like Dustin. He's so much easier and smart enough in my opinion. Oh well, we love her to pieces anyway and will just have to keep our brains one step ahead of hers :)

[Adina P]

Oh I definitely think there is a difference. They do sometimes overlap...a dog does need a certain level of intelligence to catch on quickly (some breeds are excruciatingly slow) enough to make training seem possible. BUT, a high intelligence doesn't always make a dog easy to train...and moderate intelligence doesn't make a dog hard to train.

Thule was far smarter than Rosco and much more difficult to train...she didn't like to do things unless they were her idea.
Rosco, on the other hand, gets stuck in 'sits' sometimes where he'll sit for something (without me requesting it) and then he thinks he can't move until he's released. He's not brilliant by any definition of the word...but he is a willing trainee.

[Natasha]

Oh - Rosco - he's just trying so hard. That's really cute!

Sounds like Barkley, my dog when I was little. He really wanted to make you happy, but he would look and look at you when you were trying to train him. It was as if he was an English speaker in Germany.

However, if I forgot to feed him, he would figure out how to pick up his bowl and carry it to my feet. I guess I wasn't properly motivating him :)

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

When they rate dog breeds on intelligence, they rate them in several different categories; Stanley Coren's books go into great detail about these, for people who are interested. Many of the categories don't have much to do with trainability. Take the category "Problem Solving", for example.
You know which breeds score highest in "problem solving"? Poodles...closely followed by border collies. Numbers one and two, inverted, on Stanley Coren's rankings of intelligence in dog breeds.
Now ask yourself, what are a dog's problems? How to reach something you don't want him to have? How to get out of a space in which you have confined him? You don't really want to live with a dog who's smart in that way, do you?
Well, maybe if you need a dog to actually do herding work, you do need him to be good at problem solving. It does make sense for working border collies. Herding dogs are often out there alone in the fields & hills with dozens of much larger animals that they must protect & control. If a couple of mavericks break away from the herd, that dog needs to be able to think on his feet and figure things out.
In your house, not so much.
My miniature poodle was absolutely brilliant at "problem solving", and she was the toughest dog to train I've ever encountered. Why should she take orders from someone who wasn't as smart as she was?
The most compliant, trainable dog in the world doesn't need to be good at "problem solving". He needs to be tractable, good at following directions, interpreting commands, reading people, and have a general willingness to please. A stupid dog couldn't do that. But sometimes the most "intelligent" ones can't either.

[Kelli, Fenway, & Dustin Pedroia]

That's Fenway and Dustin. That's really interesting and I may have to pick up that book and check it out. Thanks Karen!

[Linda and Murphy]

Great explanation.