Difference between intelligence and trainability...

[Kelli, Fenway, & Dustin Pedroia]

I've been thinking about this for some time and actually wanted some other opinions on this.  As some of you know I  have two doodles.  I have an almost 2 year old medium F1b female labradoodle named Fenway and a just turned one very large (standard) F1 male goldendoodle named Dustin.  Since day one we started working on basic obedience with both of our dogs.  Fenway always picked up these type of skills very quickly.  She could sit, down, stay, etc. at a very early age and is still very good with these commands.  Dustin was a little tougher with these basic commands, but is our trick dog.  If I can figure out a way to teach him a trick he's more than eager to learn it. He's our pleaser!!  Fenway looks at us like we're crazy when we try to teach her a trick.  She actually acts like tricks are totally beneath her.  This being said, I feel that Fenway, our girl, is the more intelligent of the two.  We often joke that she's too intelligent for her own good because she seems to think about commands sometimes and the consequences before actually complying with them.  Dustin is still very smart, but not nearly on the level with Fenway, but he puts her to shame when it comes to following commands very promptly and performing tricks.  So I ask all of you, do you feel like there is a difference between intelligence and trainability?  Is this just a personality thing or perhaps a labradoodle/goldendoodle difference??  I guess it's not necessary for Fenway to know tricks, but I just find it impossible to believe that she can't learn them when she can figure out so many other things.  What's the deal?

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I think this whole subject is really interesting. Karen, would you recommend Stanley Coren's book (The Intelligence of Dogs) as a good source to learn more or is there something better? Thanks.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

It's pretty dry; there's an explanation of the testing methods, and discussions of the different types of intelligence, and then nine million charts with all the breed listings and how they ranked on everything, in detail. (For example, miniature poodles scored higher than standards or toys on the "Problem Solving" tests, which really thrilled me, since mine was a miniature.) It's very interesting, but not enjoyable reading, at least to my tastes. I found this to be true of most of his books, and I'm a serious reader. You have to really want to wade through them. But skimming the charts is very enlightening; if you can get the book at the library, I'd say try it. You may like his writing better than I did.
I've read some articles on this subject in Bark magazine that I liked much better, but didn't make note of the author. When I get a chance, I'll go through some back issues and see if I can find her name.

[Lucy & AnnaBelle's Mom]

In reading many of the responses here, it appears to me that a lot of the differences that you are talking about in your dogs is personality and attitude vs. intelligence. Yes they are both intelligent. One is easier to train than the other. One really thinks things through before they decide if they are going to do what you ask. Think of that in terms of children ..... you have 2 kids that are both very intelligent, one is 7 yrs old and will do anything in the whole world to gain your approval. On the other hand, the other one is a teenager .... and it is more about "what's in it for me". I think our doodles are a lot the same, the have different attitudes and personalities.

[Linda and Murphy]

When I talk about Murphy (intelligent and very trainable...loves to please) I compare it to being street smart vs. book smart.
(I have geeky kids). Murphy is book smart. Doesn't know anything about streets and cars and alligators and snakes....general survival tasks.

[Camilla and Darwin]

I agree, there is a difference. I am no expert on the subject, but I can judge based on Darwin's behavior. I think Darwin is very trainable... but really not very intelligent. He has that goofy, unquestioning Golden Retriever personality.

He is super easy to train. Potty training was a breeze, and he picked up tricks really quick. He is very willing and happy to do what I ask him, and learn new tricks.

However, aside from the things I have taught him... he just doesn't figure things out on his own. He was really bad at "free shaping" and clicker training. I am still being patient and working on that... but he really doesn't offer new behaviors. I work with him fifteen minutes a day or so... and he has never offered something new. He just continually offers the tricks he already knows. He has never figured out "counter surfing" like... it never occurred to him to put his paws up on the counter. Just little things like that... I know he doesn't have that same mental sharpness as a purebred poodles or other doodles I know.

I think both traits are great, and a combination is even better. I love Darwin just the way he is... bumbling ways and all!

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Darwin is perfect!

[Kelli, Fenway, & Dustin Pedroia]

I agree! Darwin does sound ;pretty perfect. He sounds a lot like Dustin too. One example of Dustin's "intelligence" or lack therof is how Dustin used to stand at slightly open doors and whine untill someone would open it wide enough for him. Fenway has been pushing her way though those doors for as long as I can remember. She actually finally taught Dustin how to do this I guess because he now just puts his head down and keeps on walking, but it took awhile. I tell my husband often though that he is the perfect easy dog to have. Fenway on the other hand is a much harder dog to have, but so quirky and funny. We love them both, but they are sooooo different!

[Adina P]

That was Rosco and Thule to a T!  Rosco has learned he's more powerful than some doors but still hesitates.
Seems like most of these stories just illustrated that girls are smarter than boys...but we already KNEW THAT ;)

[Allyson, Peri & Taquito]

I think Peri is more intelligent than trainable. Don't get me wrong, I had her in a down-stay for 5 minutes last night which is pretty good for her since I was holding a piece of havarti cheese (her fave!).
She can open doors. She closes drawers that are open. She is definitely a problem solver - the owner of our daycare has told us that she is one of the smartest dogs they have ever seen. She figured out on Day 1 how to run up the slide, turn around and slide back down. No other dogs in daycare do that according to the workers. She is definitely well-behaved, but she does some mischevious things when she gets bored. And they are not normal things. Like she knows how to lure Taquito away from his bone or treat and then steal his. She offers a distraction by fake playing with a toy, dropping it and stealing whatever T had. He falls for it every time.
She figured out what hug meant pretty much immediately. She picked up on the difference between shake and high 5 within 5 minutes of our class - trainer went crazy - no other dog did that so quickly. I guess that is trainability??? I need to read a book on this! And thx for letting me brag. Peri can drive us nuts, but I swear, I have never been around a dog this smart in my life.

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

Peri also has great taste in cheese...Havarti is my favorite, too!