Opinions please - trainer comments

[Jennifer Tramell]

  My daughter is 11 yrs old and we just joined 4H.  They have a dog obedience class which is 7 wks followed by "graduation" and a dog show.  I thought this would be a great experience for both my daughter, Julianna, and goldendoodle Charlotte.  I believe that working with animals helps children learn self discipline, gentleness, effective communication, and many other traits that are valuable throughout life.  Charlotte is 8 months old and, whereas she is responsive to my commands, she views herself as "one of the kids" and doesn't neccessarily listen to others in the family.  A win-win, I thought.

I have never used a dog trainer before, never taken my dogs to training classes, always did the training myself with success.  I'm not saying that my dogs would win competition obedience contests but they are well mannered, responsive, obedient canine family members.  Last night was the 1st class meeting.  It was no dogs, just a chance to go over what training tools were needed, what would be covered in the class, etc. 

The first thing that got the fur up on the back of my neck was that we are supposed to use a pinch collar (even on a 4 lb poodle).  I am okay with a training/"choke chain" collar but I am a little uneasy about arming a bunch of kids with a pinch collar.  My training philosophy has always been to start with the gentlest method and move up if the dog does not respond.  The idea of sweet Charlotte being snapped with a pinch collar by an 11 yr old just bothers me. 

After I recovered and accepted the pinch collar idea, the trainer said that using a crate is one of the best training tools.  She recommends crating a dog for 2-4 hours prior to a training session.  Says this gives a dog "alone time" and puts the dog in an eager mental state for training.  She is training her corgi for competition obedience shows and he was crated for 4 hours prior to that days training session.  This just floors me......I would think a nice long walk to drain some energy and get the dog paying attention to the leash holder, but crating a puppy for hours?  We haven't had a crate since Charlotte was 3 months old - just didn't work with our situation.

Finally, the trainer made it clear that she did not want parents watching the classes.  This is 4H, a very family oriented organization.  The class is being held in a large arena with plenty of room for parents to sit on top rows and discreetly watch the class without being a distraction.  Charlotte is not Julianna's dog, she is a family dog.  I want to know if I approve of the training, and use the same techniques at home with both Charlotte and Webster.  I also want to see how Julianna and Charlotte interact and how Julianna handles instruction from the teacher.  The 4H agent tried to suggest that in the past parents have watched quietly from the stands and, if a particular parent is a distraction, they are asked to stay out of sight, but the trainer said "I don't want the parents here."  I am trying to give her the benefit of the doubt, but this really bugs me!  This is MY daughter, MY dog, in a family friendly organization.  I am driving 45 minutes to attend this class and I am supposed to sit in the car? 

Anyway, has anyone heard of these training techniques?  The crate theory?  Any thoughts, opinions, ideas?  Thanks for at least letting me vent!

[Allyson, Peri & Taquito]

Our trainer doesn't use these techniques - we go the positive reinforcement route.  We would NEVER be allowed to use a choke collar.  A big point of training is to get them to not pull on the leash when using a normal collar.  As for the crate, if I crated Peri for 2-4 hours before trianing, she would be a wild crazy doodle.  I walk her for 30 minutes if possible and it helps IMMENSELY.

I think, bottom line, if it were me, I would not do this.  It sounds like your gut instinct is right on. Trust it!  Not saying this trainer is awful, but if you don't agree with techniques, there is no sense in going.  And to wait in the car?????????????

[Suzann, Rosey & Bandit]

Sounds like the trainer needs to be trained!! LOL!  I wouldn't do it, her approach is completely opposite of all the training classes we have been to.  Trust your insticts... sounds like they are right on.

[Adina P]

The only thing I'm bothered by is the rule about parents NOT being allowed to watch.  I have no problem with the pinch and if she is a good trainer then she won't let kids just yank on their dogs unfairly.  Small dogs can be trained using the same tools big dogs can be trained with--it's a matter of technique. 

 

As far as the crating prior to training, I do that too.  Albeit I only crate for 1-2 hours prior to training and I crate for up to 1 hour after.  2-4 sounds awfully long.  BUT 2-4 works if you train first thing in the morning after an overnight period in the crate.  Or if you come home from work and uncrate your dog and go directly into training.  I think there are advantages to this in that the dog learns to work immediately out of confinement rather than after draining all its energy from exercise.  I would rather have a dog that is ready to obey at the drop of a hat rather than only when its too tired to disobey.  Does that make sense?  There is some latent learning that happens after training and that 'cool down' period in the crate where they can let stuff sink in may help.  I think the main thing the trainer is going after is that there is this clear divide between 'boring crate time' and 'fun training' to create a contrast and make the dog EAGER to train.  Frankly, even on days when I was unable to get that pre-training crate time my dogs are STILL eager to train...but I do think it helps.

 

As for the rest of it...gosh I have NO opinion because I have no idea how she trains other than the tool she uses.

[Carol and Banjo]

I agree that crating the dog for a period of time is beneficial  before training.... up to 4 hours sounds excessive.   I can't help but wonder though how effective that crate time will end up being if there is a 45 minute car ride.  Between being released from the crate and then readied into the car another 45 minutes to get there...then pottied and settled into the class....it sounds as though the purpose of the crate time will be negated.    Just a thought.

[Adina P]

I certainly wouldn't do a 4 hour crate if I was home.  But perhaps that upper limit of 4 hours is indeed intended as a limit.  So it would work for those who are away from home prior to training indicating that you shouldn't be crating your dog ALL day long.  Maybe?

Perhaps the 45 minute drive could be included in the 2 hours.  I would include it. 

[Lucy & AnnaBelle's Mom]

The first thing that comes to mind is "WOW' ...... MY responses would be as follows:  NO to the pinch collar; NO to leaving my 11 year old and my dog with you alone, NO to crating for hours before I come, and finally to my daughter  NO, I'm sorry, but I don't think that this program is for us.  My philosophy has always been when you start something that you follow through and don't quit, but in this case I don't think it is in the best interest of Charlotte or your daughter.   I would then figure out who is in charge of the 4H programs in your area and I would report this person's training methods.   We need to be teaching young people about positive reinforcement training!   I personally don't feel that until a dog has been evaluated by a trainer that they should be making calls on what type of collar the dog should be on.  Does she even have any idea of the skill level of each dog.  I would be concerned that with her starting in this manner, that she is going to undo everything you have done so far.  I don't think there is a 4lb dog around that needs a pinch collar.  This is one of the main reasons that here on DK they always recommend that you find a trainer that fits with your philosophy for training.  Obviously this lady does not fit yours and I would guess that if you continue you will not be happy going forward either.    It really is too bad though because it would have been such a great opportunity for both your daughter and Charlotte.

[Adina P]

I want to add.  Can you get any past references on this particular trainer's class?  You might not be able to attend, but can you ask parents whose kids have gone through this what they thought of the end result?  What did the kids think?  How were the dogs at the end of training?  Have you met her dog?  Did she do any demonstrations with her dog so you can see it working and evaluate it?  If a working dog is working willingly and seems happy to work--then obviously no 'abuse' was present in the training and the training 'worked'.  I'm being the devil's advocate here because I tend to want to defend the use of choke chains and prongs. 

 

A good training method is a good training method and likely will work for most stable dogs.  I don't think a dog necessarily needs an evaluation before you implement the use of a tool.  I think prongs and choke chains can be used on virtually any dog--it's the application of the technique used that changes based on the dog's temperament.  There is no official or accepted standard by which a trainer decides 'this boxer is perfect for a choke chain" or "this poodle can never be put on a prong" -- it's all based on personal philosophy and beliefs about training.  My trainer has trained a submissive, anxious pit bull, a hardy Airedale, a spunky little Sheltie, and a chihuahua all using the same method and the same tool (choke chain).  All different dogs and all turned out great.  She's also helped in the training of many other types and breeds of dogs.

 

At any rate I wouldn't rule out a class based SOLELY on the use of a prong or choke chain.  If anything an 11 y.o. might have BETTER luck using a prong than something like a choke chain because it doesn't require as much oomph and is less likely to be used incorrectly.

[Jennifer Tramell]

I agree & thanks for the insight.  The "no parents" just made everything else sound suspect.  I don't believe that the trainer will allow any mistreatment of the animals.  She did do a demonstration with her corgi and it was clear that they adore each other.  I just don't know enough about her or her methods to "abandon" my daughter and dog.  She comes off a bit gruff and that may aggravate the situation.

[Adina P]

The proof to me is in the pudding and the pudding to me is her Corgi.  Adoration from her Corgi and a happy working attitude indicates she probably knows what she's doing.  The key is whether she's good at teaching kids how to do it right.  That's why I think getting references from parents of kids who took her class recently would be invaluable.

[Jane, Rooney & Stuart]

I don't think the point is if these are correct training methods - the point is that you are not comfortable with them and so in my book - this is a no go!

[Allyson, Peri & Taquito]

I agree 100000% with Jane.

[Elizabeth & Cosmo]

I recommend that you have a private conversation with your Extension agent for 4-H and express your concerns. Not all agents working with 4-H have a lot of animal science experience--some of them come from human sciences or youth development backgrounds, so some of this could be new to the agent, too.

I would keep the conversation very objective and rational, but, if you are still concerned afterwards, ask to speak to the Extension coordinator/director for your county or district/region.

Have you seen the curriculum that is being used for this dog project? I haven't seen a copy of the national dog curriculum in several years, and I don't remember if these practices are recommended there or not. The curriculum should be used by the trainer/leader, because that is what the 4-H member is supposed to be learning. If you have concerns about the curriculum, I recommend talking to the 4-H specialist who is responsible for the dog project at the state level. This person is probably located at your state's land-grant university (in your case UT-Knoxville).

Extension and 4-H are all about creating good experiences for kids and their animals, and I know these professionals will want to make sure things are done correctly and positively and that the whole family are included. In most cases, the projects are led by volunteers (in this case, the dog trainer).