Bernedoodles - Another flavor of doodle

[J and Riley (and Luna)]

 

Has anyone seen these before?

 

Luna's breeder just came out with an adorable litter of mini bernedoodles:

 

Mini bernedoodles ad

 

 

They've been snapped up really quickly, and it's easy to see why!  That little brindle pup and the panda pups are my favorites.

 

It doesn't surprise me, because when we went to pick out Luna she had a couple beautiful Bernese in her "pack".   I wonder if they're related to Luna or she used her other stud (I think he's a black mini poodle)...

[Carol Brand]

This mix sure makes cute puppies, but I'm not sure it is well advised.  Poodles and Bernies have profoundly different body types and working styles.  Also, Bernies are one of the shortest lived of all breeds.  Consider...(from Wikipedia, but pretty accurate from what I've read before in other places):

 

Health surveys of Bernese Mountain Dogs in Denmark, the UK, and USA/Canada all show that this breed is very short-lived compared to breeds of similar size and purebred dogs in general. Bernese Mountain Dogs have a median longevity of 7 years in USA/Canada and Denmark surveys and 8 years in UK surveys.^[8] By comparison, most other breeds of similar size have median longevities of 10 to 11 years.^[9] The longest lived of 394 deceased Bernese Mountain Dogs in a 2004 UK survey died at 15.2 years.^[10]

Cancer is the leading cause of death for dogs in general, but Bernese Mountain Dogs have a much higher rate of fatal cancer than other breeds; in both USA/Canada and UK surveys, nearly half of Bernese Mountain Dogs died of cancer,^[10][11] compared to about 27% of all dogs.^[10] Bernese Mountain Dogs are killed by a multitude of different types of cancer, including malignant histiocytosis, mast cell tumor, lymphosarcoma, fibrosarcoma, and osteosarcoma.^[11]

Bernese Mountain Dogs also have an unusually high mortality due to musculoskeletal causes. Arthritis, hip dysplasia, and cruciate ligament rupture were reported as the cause of death in 6% of Bernese Mountain Dogs in the UK study;^[10] for comparison, mortality due to musculoskeletal ailments was reported to be less than 2% for purebred dogs in general.

 Mobility

Owners of Bernese Mountain Dogs are nearly three times as likely as owners of other breeds to report musculoskeletal problems in their dogs.^[10] The most commonly reported musculoskeletal issues are cruciate ligament rupture, arthritis (especially in shoulders and elbows), hip dysplasia, and osteochondritis.^[10][11] The age at onset for musculoskeletal problems is also unusually low. For example, in the USA/Canada study, 11% of living dogs had arthritis at an average age of 4.3 years.^[11] Most other common, non-musculoskeletal morbidity issues strike Berners at rates similar to other breeds.^[10]

In short, prospective Bernese Mountain Dog owners should be prepared to cope with a large dog that may have mobility problems at a young age. Options to help mobility-impaired dogs may include ramps for car or house access. Comfortable bedding may help alleviate joint pain.

[Joanne ~ Spud*]

Good grief.  Interesting, but sad to know.

[Camilla and Darwin]

So 50% of BMDs die of cancer? And 27% of all dogs die of cancer? Both of these figures are shockingly high to me. How horrible. 

 

[Diane and Alma]

That's exactly what I thought when I read it.  Those numbers are awful!

[Adina P]

I'm wondering if that 27% dies of cancer at an early age though.  Live long enough and we'll all die of some kind of disease.  That's what they say about men...that all men would get prostate cancer if they lived long enough.  So 27% dogs with cancer when that cancer shows up in senior times...just seems par for the course of living.  But 27% getting cancer when that cancer cuts their normal life expectancy significantly shorter is scary.  Our border collie, Cass, had bone cancer and because of the severity of her cancer we put her down at almost 15 years of age.  We would have loved another healthy year or two with her, but she did live a long full life as it was.

[Rory]

I've known some standard size bernedoodles, they are super cute and really well tempered. But I also know some people with pure bred Berners and they have always had health problem after health problem...not sure what the mix will do for longevity, etc, but they sure are great dogs personality-wise....

 

Separate question: why does your breeder advertise on Kijiji???? Not that I'm judging, I got my Yetti off Kijiji (she was a re-home) but I just wonder why a good breeder would need to go that route...

[J and Riley (and Luna)]

She doesn't have a website, I don't think she's very tech savvy. She also doesn't answer her e-mails very often ;)

We weren't too keen about it at first, having seen lots of breeder websites... but when we visited her place, the pups were in a very nice puppy pen and obviously well taken care of and used to being around people.

 

About bernedoodles - on the other side of the coin... what if good poodle genes can actually help make it a healthier pup?  Having good poodle genes could actually counteract some of the "bad" genetics of the bernese.  "Hybrid vigor" - which I'm sure you doodle people have all heard about is definitely real.

[Adina P]

Depends on how the genetics for a particular disease work.  Some diseases only need one copy of a gene.  Others need both parents to carry it (and carriers aren't always ones who HAVE the disease so it's effectively 'hiding').  I'm not sure about a tiny little poodle with a large dog though.  Seems like you really can't predict size at all at that point.  Websites aren't necessary...what matters is a thorough understanding of each breed and doing all that's possible to create healthy dogs (health testing, etc).  Puppy mills can have nice looking sites and good breeders can have no site.

[J and Riley (and Luna)]

I'm not sure she's even had a litter of bernedoodles before, she didn't mention them when we were there to pick out Luna.

 

Who knows about the genetics - the trouble with cancer is that it results from a mutation... it's pretty tough to test for the tendency for a gene to mutate, if it's even possible.  In humans we have those genes sequenced, but I doubt they have for dogs (let alone the TONS of different genetic lines in dogs).

 

The size is a concern though, 15-20 lb. mini poodle with 80 lb. Bernese O_O

[J and Riley (and Luna)]

I suppose, but "hybrid vigor" usually refers to plants anyway :p

 

And if you really want to get into "species".... wouldn't a chihuahua and an Irish Wolfhound be reproductively isolated, which is often used as the definition for a species?  I actually had that debate in class one day - are they still considered one species, because they require our "help" if they are to breed?

 

Anyway - beyond philosophical ramblings... Hybrid vigor (in my mind) is more about two individuals with very different genetics, so you're unlikely to get two of the same copies for a "bad" gene, and more likely to get at least one good one.  With two breeds, the likelihood of getting two "bad" copies is lower, since they are from very different ancestry.  Even the sterile hybrids probably  have some advantage (within their lifespan) from being a hybrid.

[Adina P]

It would be an interesting study but it would seem really difficult to do to get a good control sample.  For instance which mixed dogs would you want to compare to what pure breed?  Do you compare accidental mutts because it's more random mixing?  Do you include BYB's even though they likely have inferior breeding stock?  Do you compare responsible doodle breeders?  so many confounding factors.

[J and Riley (and Luna)]

Yeah, you'd almost have to spend decades making your own representative sample of "dogs", creating purebreds with mixed lines from all sorts of places.... so incredibly expensive, and there's no way anyone wound fund it!  Not to mention it would be breeding dogs just for the purpose of breeding dogs... and the Chihound would almost certainly be a mess :(