'The Dog Whisper's' aka Cesar Milan's dominance method of training

[Nicky, Riley & Boris]

I came across this very interesting in depth examination which is calm and considered with lots of examples.  I think it's worth debating as 'The Dog Whisperer' has world wide publicity and seems to be in the 'Most Popular' celebrity catagory.

Please watch the videos and then post your thoughts.  As a newbie and someone who wants the best for my new Puppy I need to know what you think.

http://www.drsophiayin.com/philosophy/training

 

If you click on the Dominance Controversy it will bring you straight to the videos.

[Adina P]

Well if she was willing to leave me entirely and chase the squirrel I think that's out of control.  Of course it's not the 'scary' kind where she looks like she's going to attack a dog or person.  But she probably would have risked her life for a squirrel. And left alone in a place with a squirrel she probably still would.  So it's not like her interest in squirrels has ceased at all.  But when I'm with her she thinks of her wants in relationship to me and the possibilities and tends to choose staying near.

 

I think when it comes to you and Murphy, at that point in your training you were essentially working alone.  As far as not having a trainer knowledgeable in what you were working on or the techniques you were using right at hand to guide you, advise you, fix any handling problems and help you.  You did awesome for doing it alone without a person there.  But it was not enough.  You (as MOST people) needed someone to see you, watch you and help you in real time.  And that is what you got from your trainer who ultimately was what you needed most.  Could you have continued what you were doing with the help of someone well versed in THAT program?  Very likely? But it doesn't matter because that wasn't an option and you found a great person to help you that did things a little differently.  All in all you and Murphy are a great story of success =)

 

Boca may not look like she's going to 'attack' another dog but she has her own version of 'berserk' around other dogs.  She whines like her head will spin off and loses quite a bit of focus.  She needs a lot more work around other dogs but our options are limited.  She definitely reacts with excitement, and uncontrollable (thus for her) whining -- she is NOT calm and barely keeping her heel.  Her problem seems to arise from the tension between what she wants (to reach the other dog) and the task at hand (heeling, sitting, whatever).  Because once she reaches the other dog she's fine...she's broken the tension.  I want her to learn to relax even when she doesn't get to the object of her desire at that moment.  She needs to forget 'the other dog' and work.

 

My training mentor is mentoring a new trainer who has just put a pit bull with a cat killing history through some major obedience training.  He's finished novice obedience (all the off leash stuff for basic commands in probably 3 months) and is now starting the retrieve.  This dog went from barely able to contain himself and focus around cats....to trembling while working...to completely ignoring the cats while working.  BUT it took a lot of work and he DID want to kill those cats every time.  He can now work off leash around cats, but will need a very dog savvy home when he's rehomed as most average people won't be able to maintain his training.

[Maryann,Roo and Tigger]

I'll just jump in here again.  In my mind it is perfectly possible to have a very well behaved pet who has not had one leash lesson.  I had two dogs as a child both of them came everytime they were called.  Chan, an German short-haired pointer, went with us when we rode out cross country on our horses.  He was rarely on a leash, certainly never to taught to walk without pulling on one. My father was "the trainer" but both were also equally responsive to my mother and I.  I was only about 7 when we got the first dog.  Perhaps my dad was kind of a "dog whisperer" in the best sense and so my mom and I just followed his lead.  I don't really know as I grew up around so many animal people, I thought everyone was like that.

After I married, over time, we had five well mannered house dogs, a Siberian/shepherd rescue, a Siberina Husky, and a golden an two more Siberians.  None of them were door dashers, jumpers, barkers, biters, counter surfers, etc.  In addition all of them, except Thor ,who did not grow up with children, were excellent with my children and the dozens of children that were their friends. 

Ivan, the mix, just was so happy to be with us he walked perfectly on leash.  I did teach him the automatic sit, more for my benefit than anything else as at the time I was also "walking" two small children.  The other two Czar and Sunny ( bet you can guess which one was the golden!) never really had any serious leash training.  The golden would walk nicely without a leash, if we were in a place that was practical to do so. Storm, the 4th, had serious leash training and could be a model of obedience. Notice that I did not say she always was a model of obedience.  Far from it.  But Storm was bombproof with children, people, and food.   Thor, the last before the doodles, was not raised with children and probably could not have been because of his serious seizure problems.  He had serious leash training which never really "took" well - perhaps because of the medication issue or perhaps because we coddled him a bit.  But Thor, too, had marvelous house manners which were all firmly in place before the seizure issue really became obvious. 

Just consistently teaching sit, wait, come, "quiet or place" was really all the useful commands they knew.  All were started very young, with consistent rules, lots of praise and treats and meaningful nos.

Roo, I must say, has far from perfect house manners, but he is much,much better.  He has been a challenge. Tigger was a piece of cake, he could probably have been trained by a three year old, he is so compliant.

My point, which was probably lost in all this is -leash and/or abedience training isn't everything or even always necessary.  It depends on what you are shooting for and what you start out with.

 

 

 

[Karen, Jasper and Jackdoodle]

I love this post! And I am going to steal one of your phrases; " Jackdoodle is bombproof with children and food", too. And I think an example of a very well-behaved pet who really hasn't had any leash lessons or obedience training to speak of.

[Adina P]

True...I'm sure many can remember childhood examples of such ideal dogs that just did what they needed to do to be good citizens and companions.  But the rest of us have dogs that don't just choose to walk right near us without pulling, they don't naturally come when called and jump on people, steal food, etc.  If you've got one of those awesome-right-out-of-the-box dogs (Camilla's Darwin for example) then very minimal formal obedience training is needed if any.  They just kinda go along with what you want.

[Adina P]

I think the key is that you worked with a good trainer you trusted who could help guide you as you were working Murphy (whether that was working an obedience command or not).  I can also give you stories of dogs worse than Murphy (who had attacked other dogs or killed cats, etc) who were trained with obedience training alone.  They were taught commands, practiced, held accountable and then rewarded when they did things correctly or corrected/punished when breaking the commands or acting in really inappropriate ways.  With that consistency and the skill of the trainer the dog learned what was acceptable, what was not and learned to find pleasure, comfort, and safety in obedience.  But the ones I know of were either trained by experienced trainers or were guided by such trainers.  Neither you nor I have that level of skill to work with a challenging dog on our own.  So awesome when we find that person to help us train our dog effectively, regardless of the style or method.

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

I completely agree, and that's why I think it's so critical that people with "challenging" dogs search for the "right" trainer and method for that dog.

[Sandra Griffith]

Nicky, it has been so interesting to read everyone's well-considered points regarding your debate topic.  I started training dogs in the 1970's (I guess I am aging myself here) and have watched the many changes that have occured in the dog training world through this period of time.  I have successfully put obedience titles on many dogs through UD (the AKC Utility Dog title) in addition to training Newfoundlands through their water rescue dog and draft dog titles.  In addition I have trained dogs for the police, deaf, handicapped, and for drug-detection work.  Lastly I have  taught  obedience classes and worked with pet owners to help solve (hopefully) their dog's behaviour issues.  I started out as a "traditional" trainer using choke collars and have switched over to clicker training and so-called "positive" methods in recent years so have tried a number of different training styles in my career.  Having said all of this, I still consider myself someone who has much to learn and will continue to learn from every dog I work with in addition to watching, reading, and listening to as many different trainers, academics, behaviour specialists, and just every day pet owners.

 

In my opinion there is often a divide made between teaching a dog "obedience" and using the techniques taught in obedience as tools that may  and perhaps should be incorporated into every day life in addition to being techniques that may be used to potentially earn titles or used in dog sports, if so desired.  What I mean by this is incorporating things like sit into sit and wait before a door is opened, long downs while people are eating a meal, walking nicely on a leash, stand so that a vet can examine your dog or your groomer can work on your dog, and perhaps a trick or two to for fun to lighten up tension when someone is a bit apprehensive around your dog.  I'm aware that this has been mentioned by many of you and I wholeheartedly agree.  Many classes will teach some or all of these behaviours but do not always (I'm not trying to judge here, I'm sure there are reasons why this is not covered) go into how these behaviours may be incorporated into everyday life.

 

Being consistant is one of the areas that I find many people have difficulty with in working with their dogs.  I like many people of been guilty of this many times.  You know how it is, I'm tired after not having had enough sleep, I'm feeling a bit grumpy because I have just had an argument with my teenage son about too much time on the computer, and to be perfectly honest, I just don't feel like taking the extra time to ensure that my dog sits properly at the front door (let's say it's pouring freezing cold rain down on me) before we can go in the door so that I can finally go to bed (ah sleep, finally...).  This of course has sent the message to that smart little dog with the cute little face that sometimes when I give the cue to sit I will actually have her sit and sometimes I'm just giving the cue because I like to say the word or move my hand in that funny way.  This naturally sends very mixed signals to her and  makes the cue optional on both our parts.  Then I might wonder why she isn't consistent (when I have actually been the one to train her to not be consistent).  As long as I'm in true confession mode, I will also admit that I have sent the same sort of mixed signal to the aforementioned teenage son regarding his computer time.

 

 I believe that there is no such thing as absolutely, totally, positive training.  If your dog is excited about a training session it is negative to end the training session (negative punishment).  Not reacting to a behaviour that a dog is exibiting that you wish to extinguish (such as begging) is also a form of negative punishment.  Ending a game of catch with a dog that loves the game of catch is also a form of negative punishment.  It is virtually impossible (I think) to go through life whether dog or human without some form of negative punishment.  What is labled positive training does not mean allowing your dog to do whatever it wants.  I have seen many owners, under the guise of "positive training", reward their dog for doing whatever it wants.  This is only training your dog to behave in a manner that most people would find objectionable.  Positive training, at least the way I practice it (and my way is certainly not the only way by any means) does not mean you are allowing the dog to do whatever it wishes.  My dogs must earn everything from play time with me to eating their dinner.  The "nothing is free" idea (again in my humble opinion) does not conflict with the basic consepts of "positive training".

 

To sum up I believe that the concepts of consistency, incorporating your cues into everyday life, and having your dog earn its rewards (the "nothing si free" idea) are key to a well behaved dog.

 

The reactive dog issue that Jane has so honestly shared with us is for me more of a behavioural issue which (as she has said) requires special techniques to handle in combination with solid training techniques designed to work in tandem with the dog's special needs in mind.  I know that Jane has worked hard on this with Murphy and done brilliantly.  She should be commended for all of the hard work that she has put into Murphy's training and is to be applauded.

 

 

[Jane, Guinness and Murphy]

Thank you, Sandra.  I think you have stated much more concisely than I have what I was trying to say.  It is my belief that for some dogs with some serious behavioral issues, you need more than just a "training program".  Clearly you do need training, but in Murphy's case I needed more than that.  We did need the "special techniques" you describe.  Is it possible that Adina's training mentor could have addressed Murphy's serious reactiveness with her training program and nothing else....I guess it is a possibility.

[Adina P]

Sandra I didn't realize we had such a wealth of experience in you!  I could tell you were very knowledgeable about clicker training, but I didn't realize you'd been training for so long and had some titles behind you.  Awesome!

 

I totally agree that there is often a divide between obedience training and real life--I don't think it should be there but it's easy to compartmentalize.  I forgetfully do it too at times.  Boca might be trying to poke me and Natalie and be pushing for attention while I am trying to put Natalie's shoes on on my lap.  And sometimes I forget I can tell her "Boca sit" or "Boca down" -- and as soon as I remember...oh yes I need to use what she knows, the whole scenario gets better.  I think that's why NILIF is so helpful to people.  I'm not sure the dog necessarily considers himself 'earning' rights (though that might very well be true), but I think it gives people a reason to practice obedience in their real life (where it's most needed) and get their dog into a groove where the chaos and ants-in-his-pants is reduced. If the dog has to sit before getting a ball thrown, well that dog is gonna get better at responding to sit with all that practice.  If a dog learns to automatically sit and wait for a release before running out the door...exits will be much less chaotic and stressful and much more safe--even if it's not command practice at that point.

[Sandra Griffith]

Thank you for your kind words.  I feel that there is always more to learn

I believe that every interaction with our dogs is a potential learning moment.  Of course there is no need to obsess about it too much and I think everyone has there moments when they do not follow through as well as they might (yes I am totally guilty of this as mentioned above).  I also believe that our dogs are working at "training" us as well.  It's an interesting exercise to sometimes put ourselves in our dog's position to try to figure out what they are trying to communicate to us and the subtle (and not so subtle) ways that they get their point across.  Obvious examples are dropping a ball in our lap or nudging us for attention.  I have so many clients that are not aware at how well their dog's have "trained" them until it is pointed out.  They are such smart creatures!

[Jennifer and Jack]

I am really enjoying reading this, I don't have anything to add that would be of value but I am very intrigued and I am hopeful to learn more. I am trying to get Jack in the best possible position possible as we are adding a puppy to our family in August, though it will be my mom's dog, she will be staying with us for the first few months. I want to really do a good job and I am trying to learn because having one dog one time in your life such as I do, means I know nothing other then how one dog responds to simple training.

 

 

[Maryann,Roo and Tigger]

I do realize that I tend to be long-winded in writing.  My apologies.  This whole discussion was about Caesar's Way, dominance training, positive reinforcement, etc. 

My experience does extend beyond childhood memories and into and through life until now.

My point was that many, many dogs can be excellent companions without any "formal" classes, trainers, etc.  I am very much in favor of trainers, classes and am something of a training method collector.

But many people can or will not be able or choose to take the formal training route.  With consistency in everyday life, some knowledge, and some common sense it is common to have a well behaved dog wihout using any particular trainer or training method.  (please don't hit you dog upside of the head, though).  No doubt such a dog and family would be out of the element in obedience showing and perhaps not very good on a leash either.  But many families seldom take their dogs on a leash or don't worry much if the dog is leading/pulling.  While I may choose to have a dog walk quitely beside me, many do not.  I do not find this to be a flaw in a fmaily dog.